Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

Recommended Posts

- naming of children beyond the wall has something to do with the Others. We see that the wildlings do not name their children immediately after birth. They wait for the children to show the capacity for survival before being named. Why is that?

Not knocking the rest of your theory, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Delaying the naming of children is something seen in many Earth cultures, especially those that live in a harsh environment. I think GRRM was just borrowing that anthropological detail to flesh out the Free Folk cultures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just had another thought relevant to this thread.



What if the whole Old Gods and New is relevant to the blood?



Consider the Old Gods are in line with pagan gods from Earth - the Others are old gods that represent cold, the trees are old gods that represent life, the dragons are old gods that represent fire, the drowned god represents the ocean, they harpy of Ghis represents something (perhaps even a time when the humans and pagan gods existed in peace) and so on. In ASoIaF, these pagan gods actually exist, or existed, in physical form.



Then comes the New Gods, the faith of the Seven, the human gods that pay no head to the old pagan gods aligned with natural forces, in much the same way as modern religions on Earth either superseded or entwined themselves with our pagan religions,



The Old gods were actual in ASoIaF, so the reason Valyrian blood may have become powerful is that it re-aligned itself with the actual Old Gods of fire. Andal blood drifted further away from any Old God alignment.



This does raise the probability that the Drowned God is also real and that blood aligned with it may have a certain, actual power also. There may be 3 major players and this is why Theon has been in the tale from the start, although the Drowned God (Iron Islanders) may just ally itself with the Fire God (Dany) to return all the old gods to Westeros.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just had another thought relevant to this thread.

What if the whole Old Gods and New is relevant to the blood?

Consider the Old Gods are in line with pagan gods from Earth - the Others are old gods that represent cold, the trees are old gods that represent life, the dragons are old gods that represent fire, the drowned god represents the ocean, they harpy of Ghis represents something (perhaps even a time when the humans and pagan gods existed in peace) and so on. In ASoIaF, these pagan gods actually exist, or existed, in physical form.

Then comes the New Gods, the faith of the Seven, the human gods that pay no head to the old pagan gods aligned with natural forces, in much the same way as modern religions on Earth either superseded or entwined themselves with our pagan religions,

The Old gods were actual in ASoIaF, so the reason Valyrian blood may have become powerful is that it re-aligned itself with the actual Old Gods of fire. Andal blood drifted further away from any Old God alignment.

This does raise the probability that the Drowned God is also real and that blood aligned with it may have a certain, actual power also. There may be 3 major players and this is why Theon has been in the tale from the start, although the Drowned God (Iron Islanders) may just ally itself with the Fire God (Dany) to return all the old gods to Westeros.

until evidence is directly implied, i cant recognize any "gods" persay in this novel, all that exists thus far is said "magic" to corresponding deities, yet no deities to speak of. who's right? it's like real life. yet unlike real life, we have evidence of magic in asoiaf.

it's hard, but try and separate blood and magic, with religion and faith. not faith, gods.

it's mentioned the rhoynar were akin to water in twoiaf, i still have suspicions of the drowned god's religious origins to attribute it to the rhoyner. we HAVENT seen water magic, or air, as of yet. yet it's spoken of in the books and twoiaf. i wouldnt say it doesnt exist, but if it does, theyre bloodlines we havent really seen yet. rhoyner, and andal, could attribute water and air.

i digress

in respect to this thread, and the revelation of my newfound endearing faith in the Maester Fomas, something HAD to have happened, to give The First Men Wildlings their powers. something granted it to them, and it's in this respect where the queen may come to exist. then again, look at real life, it's the age old chicken or the egg question redefined.

Does the night's queen exist? Does she not exist? if she doesnt exist, what granted The First Men their Other-wordly powers. Did they ingest ice-spiders? Did one peter parker himself to an ice spider and become the first Other? im thinking we may be entering at an impass with what we have thus far, actually. it took a lot of theorization that began with Craster and "supposing" he had first men blood, Maester Fomas would have me believe i was correct. truth is, we dont truly know his bloodline, i mean more than likely it's first men, but even when i thought of it, it was just speculation. my clarification is fomas, who according to twoiaf may or may not be trusted accurately.

if the Others were First Men, something gave them their power/turned them. Way before the Night's King mystery.

Brainstorming: The First Men warred with The Children Of The Forest forever before they finally determined it'd be best to make a pact. What if the pact, was a First Men/Children Of The Forest hybrid? as in, either COTF Male + First Men female, OR, COTF female + First Men male. Could a child entity from their bloodlines during this pact have created the first Other? A reaction of sorts?

Male First Men + Female COTF = ???

Female First Men + Male COTF = ???

It's later specified the Andals arrived, and just started killing everything, they wielded iron/steel, a weakness to the dead. The First Men wielded bronze, i think it said, and they lost a lot. Could it have been that they adapted, with new ice weapons/armor that shimmer as if they were magical, & provided by the COTF? There's obviously nothing valyrian about their equipment. It shimmers, and changes like a pond, supposedly can reflect. COTF magic to First men to grant them weapons/armor?

The pact, the first men formed a pact with the children. first men blood can be descended through normal bloodlines, and have them not be other. theyre enhanced, in some way.

....Could The Night's Queen have been a COTF? with a First Men male mate? Could she have been the only female cotf to lay with someone outside her race? And produce abominable Other-children?

Old Nan's tales.. she said something about human females laying with male Others to create abominable children. this has to connect somehow, i know im close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, in short, it is saying that the First men become 'one' with Westeros by screwing the fairies/wood nymphs?



Are there male CotF?



There are male and female giants, which existed with the CotF for ages before First Men, pacts and so on.



Perhaps the Others allowed the First men and CotF to intermingle and share the world, so long as they periodically sent babies to let them know the original blood was still around.



Or, perhaps CotF are the children of the Others and, so long as the Others can see that the blood of their children is still in Westeros, they are happy to leave it to them. Or, perhaps the Others are just the male side to the CotF?



The Long Night may have been about forced intermingling of blood, ended when the Nights King decided to rule over the divide with mixed blood.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timelinewise. Could a Male First Man, get with a female COTF, and create the first Other?

...perhaps, a baby girl?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timelinewise. Could a Male First Man, get with a female COTF, and create the first Other?

...perhaps, a baby girl?

There were around 4,000-6,000 years between the First Men existing on Westeros with the CotF and the Others first appearing. That's a lot of time to get up to a lot of things :D

The CotF seem old, like really old - older than the Others. Their dawn age was long before the First Men and their end times seem to be approaching with the coming winter/Long Night.

It does seem more likely that the Others are creation of the CotF than the other way around. Perhaps the CotF summonsed the Others to breed humans out of Westeros, or breed this kind of oneness with the land into them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think human/CotF interbreeding is HIGHLY unlikely. CotF are almost certainly not primates, due to their vertical slit pupils, claws, and four fingered hands - those traits are all very rare in primates, with two of them only appearing in one species each. There is no primate with all three of those traits, but they are quite common among carnivora. I'd be more likely to believe in human/giant interbreeding than CotF...don't know enough about the giants to say what order they are likely to be part of but so far there's been nothing suggested that means they couldn't be primates.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Other human interbreeding Mitt?



It's a bit hard to say, considering we still don't know what the Others really are - but, at the very least, they can control human bodies, both dead and alive. It also seems human offspring are acceptable live wright/Other sacrifices and then there is the whole Nights King bedding down with an Other legend.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timelinewise. Could a Male First Man, get with a female COTF, and create the first Other?

...perhaps, a baby girl?

Human + green girl = ice princess? I'm not seeing it. Also I think it would be very difficult for a female CotF to give birth to a human-sized baby. As far as I know, the Others are man-sized.

Now if they're playing around with magic that changes things a bit, but I think female First Man and male CotF works better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Human + green girl = ice princess? I'm not seeing it. Also I think it would be very difficult for a female CotF to give birth to a human-sized baby. As far as I know, the Others are man-sized.

Now if they're playing around with magic that changes things a bit, but I think female First Man and male CotF works better.

theoretically, the child would be normal sized (id think). its still so speculative though. If Foma is accurate and the first Others were First Men, their powers and appearence had to have been given to them. Even their armor and weapons, it's shiny, mystical, reflective. Is it a different magic entirely from COTF magic? Not to use the show as a guide, they were hurling fireballs, not something that relies and greenery and trees would implement.

say a male cotf, got with a female first man. could the spawn be the first Other? (boy, or girl, if it's a girl, that may be TNQ whose survived since)

now, Others are mortal, they age from child to adult, on the show they look decrepit, but in the books theyre supposedly beautiful. exclude the show, would a spawn from a cotf and first man female turn out beautiful? enhanced witht he magical properties in the blood, and the powers of the cotf?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another idea too: the world is round, eventually when you go north enough, you end up on the south. if we're going north, by northwest, we eventually come up on the southeastern portion of planetos, aka, The Shadowlands, asshai, and the heart of darkness. For all we know, the heart of winter IS the heart of darkness. theoretically, the 2nd wall, would lie there in the black lands of asshai (if there is a 2nd wall and if there's any speculation to the '2nd wall' theory)



even if there isnt a second wall, geographically, we'd end up in that area, correct?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Other human interbreeding Mitt?

It's a bit hard to say, considering we still don't know what the Others really are - but, at the very least, they can control human bodies, both dead and alive. It also seems human offspring are acceptable live wright/Other sacrifices and then there is the whole Nights King bedding down with an Other legend.

It does seem that there is a relation. I think the Others inhabit transformed human bodies…now, whether the Others are humans that were transformed by magic, or non-humans that are simply occupying magically modified human bodies is up in the air. Are Others children of Craster who are the way they were because they were raised by Others, or is the human mind completely suppressed/extinguished when the infant is transformed and replaced with something older and more alien? Either way, I think (esp. with the help of magic) that it might be possible for a human to interbreed with an Other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm.. separate sects of children. Ideas from Heresy 139. If it can be proven, I think we've solved the Other mystery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OMG I AM SO CLOSE



Old nan tells bran the last hero went to find the children, but was overrun by Others and his sword cracked under the cold.



in TWOIAF, doesnt it say The Last Hero eventually made it to the children? (This would imply, the Others took him to the children, or the children were WITH the Others)



What if the last hero did get overwhelmed by the Others, and the cold children of the forest, together (separate sect). The Last Hero gets Turned in this way, into who we now know, as the Night's King, and would disprove, that he was turned because he "fell in love with a female Other," confirming that the night's watch's history nothing but a blatant lie



"All crows are liars" - Old Nan.



It very well may prove, that there is in fact ZERO female Others. which would mean The Night's King has in fact, been following his oath, and fighting against The Night's Watch



think of the two sects of COTF, one goes north, the other goes south to the wall. one enhances First Men into Others, the other, gives the watch obsidian daggers to fight said individuals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm.. separate sects of children. Ideas from Heresy 139. If it can be proven, I think we've solved the Other mystery

It's close - but not solved :D

Re your point about the world being round - this is what I was trying to get at in one of your threads with where is the equator? And perhaps the map isn't aligned with true north.

Let's just say there were dragons all over the world, including Westeros, during some of the Dawn age and Age of Heroes (it is known, the books just haven't spoken about it yet) and let's just say the dragons came from the shadows of Asshai. The Long Night was a global response to dragons, it did cover the whole world.

You know why the maesters worked to kill the Targ dragons? To avoid another Long Night - the maesters know that dragons bring the Long Night.

You know what the Others could have been? The CotF using their magic on the first men to make an anti dragon army. The Age of Heroes was a time when the CotF and the First Men fought dragons, to try and save Westeros from them, I'll bet and the Others were First men imbued with the power to fight them.

I'll tell you who holds all the secrets and answers also - it's Mel. And I will be very surprised if Mel is actually human under her glamour at the end of the book. She is something else, something shadowy - something from Asshai. That is why she can make shadow babies and doesn't even need Stannis semen to do it - she just needs blood.

Whatever started all of this is from Asshai, I'm sure of it. And, it is not going to end well, I'm sure of that as well. But there will be a dawn, eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's close - but not solved :D

Re your point about the world being round - this is what I was trying to get at in one of your threads with where is the equator? And perhaps the map isn't aligned with true north.

Let's just say there were dragons all over the world, including Westeros, during some of the Dawn age and Age of Heroes (it is known, the books just haven't spoken about it yet) and let's just say the dragons came from the shadows of Asshai. The Long Night was a global response to dragons, it did cover the whole world.

You know why the maesters worked to kill the Targ dragons? To avoid another Long Night - the maesters know that dragons bring the Long Night.

You know what the Others could have been? The CotF using their magic on the first men to make an anti dragon army. The Age of Heroes was a time when the CotF and the First Men fought dragons, to try and save Westeros from them, I'll bet and the Others were First men imbued with the power to fight them.

I'll tell you who holds all the secrets and answers also - it's Mel. And I will be very surprised if Mel is actually human under her glamour at the end of the book. She is something else, something shadowy - something from Asshai. That is why she can make shadow babies and doesn't even need Stannis semen to do it - she just needs blood.

Whatever started all of this is from Asshai, I'm sure of it. And, it is not going to end well, I'm sure of that as well. But there will be a dawn, eventually.

it depends if we can prove that there were two sects of children, my friend. see above post :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OMG I AM SO CLOSE

Old nan tells bran the last hero went to find the children, but was overrun by Others and his sword cracked under the cold.

in TWOIAF, doesnt it say The Last Hero eventually made it to the children? (This would imply, the Others took him to the children, or the children were WITH the Others)

What if the last hero did get overwhelmed by the Others, and the cold children of the forest, together (separate sect). The Last Hero gets Turned in this way, into who we now know, as the Night's King, and would disprove, that he was turned because he "fell in love with a female Other," confirming that the night's watch's history nothing but a blatant lie

"All crows are liars" - Old Nan.

It very well may prove, that there is in fact ZERO female Others. which would mean The Night's King has in fact, been following his oath, and fighting against The Night's Watch

think of the two sects of COTF, one goes north, the other goes south to the wall. one enhances First Men into Others, the other, gives the watch obsidian daggers to fight said individuals.

It is something like that. I don't think there will be any sects or anything though.

I think the wall might exist to keep the special anti dragon First Men (ie the Others) safely separated from the rest of the world.

The Last Hero could simply have been the Last Other, the last ice imbued human, who became the Nights King to guard the Land of Always Winter from the rest of the world. It's why the giants and CotF retreated north, to stay safe from the world of men, in case they are ever needed again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get too tied up in trying to resolve the legends literarily Blazfemur - TWOIAF distinctly points out that very little is known and some things are contradictory and the bits where it just gives you one sentence, like:



'But there were dragons in Westeros once', or 'some say the Others are a tribe of the First Men' matter more than the complexity of the legends. Read between the lines - the bits where TWOIAF contradicts itself are the bits that hold the truth.



GRRM is trying to keep the end game secret - it is the opposite to most fantasy sagas in many ways, chiefly:



1) the evil isn't external, it's internal (in humans)


2) the object of evil power is static (the IT)


3) the legends aren't a literal description of a hero figure


4) Mel, so far, has her light and dark back to front


5) the hero figure(s) will bring the night, to release the dawn


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far, the basic premise is:



once upon a time the first men and cotf warred. eventually they formed a pact. a group of first men branch off north (Fomas) and meet with more children. it is these children that grant them their powers. they journey south, and war with the cotf we know. a wall of ice is erected by the cotf/Others (it IS ice, you know), and the Others/cold cotf maintain control of it, attempting to keep those of the First Men away. They succeed to this very day, every northern family has first men blood, but how many first men exist beyond the wall, just Wildlings. the night's watch arrives out of those southern first men, who have elected a ruler, and take control of the wall, pushing the Others/cold children further north, along with any First Men that don't support the idea of their ruler. They become wildlings. The Night's Watch hold the wall of ice, and get bran the builder to build the castles and forts, and call it their own. a certain lord commander eventually assumes control (Stark). The Long Night happens, and times are tough. Lord Commander Stark (Last Hero), and his 12 companions, journey north in search for the children's assistence, and his companions die, one by one. Eventually, he meets with the Cold COTF/Others, where, he is overwhelmed. Such so, that he is eventually Turned due to his First Men blood, against his will. The Night's King is born. He returns to the wall, where they exile him immediately upon looking at him. The resuming 14th lord commander then destroys all evidence of the night's king who was once lord commander stark, the last hero, and who he was. they villainize him, they tell people he fornicated with Others, and who's not to believe him without the circumstantial evidence that he blatantly destroyed (Sam to Jon, TNW Library). Lord Commander Stark, The Night's King, nowhere else to go, ventures back north, & begins to amass an army, but from where? With Other magic granted to him, while maintaining the Night's Watch Oath, he TAKES (not fathers) wildling children with First Men blood, and Turns them. He takes ONLY the boys, to eliminate any temptation to wife.



im getting close. this may not all be accurate, but im getting there.



Futhermore, any of the First Men that sided with the cold COTF can live north at the wall hassle-free (Wildlings), as long as they pay blood tribute to keep the numbers up. Those that dont, breach the pact.




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get too tied up in trying to resolve the legends literarily Blazfemur - TWOIAF distinctly points out that very little is known and some things are contradictory and the bits where it just gives you one sentence, like:

'But there were dragons in Westeros once', or 'some say the Others are a tribe of the First Men' matter more than the complexity of the legends. Read between the lines - the bits where TWOIAF contradicts itself are the bits that hold the truth.

GRRM is trying to keep the end game secret - it is the opposite to most fantasy sagas in many ways, chiefly:

1) the evil isn't external, it's internal (in humans)

2) the object of evil power is static (the IT)

3) the legends aren't a literal description of a hero figure

4) Mel, so far, has her light and dark back to front

5) the hero figure(s) will bring the night, to release the dawn

With reference to 2...what was the object last time when there was no Iron Throne?

I think the legends are of the 13, and each country has decided their guy was the one who survived and saved everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×