LonCon / Sons of the Dragon v2

[yolkboy]

The first thread is locked for length....

Here's the summaries from those of us that were there....

Lord Varys made extensive notes Here

Aratan posted bits through the thread like this & this

my notes are here

(Radio Westeros also offers more details in our LonCon podcast, plus WoIaF chat with Ran+Linda).

So carry on the discussion!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Re-reading all the notes again, I must say I am a bit surprised that Aegon waited 35 years before deciding his "Aegonfort" wasn't good enough, and had to be replaced with something bigger and better. I always thought that he had made that decision earlier.

With the info that Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya thus apparently lives in KL until 35AC (with the exception of Rhaenys, who had was long dead by then), how should the information from the app be viewed, concerning the place of birth for Aenys and Maegor? Both are stated to have been born on Dragonstone.

Also, do we know where Aenys' and Alyssa's children were born? KL or Dragonstone? The story concerning Maegor marrying Alys Harroway on Dragonstone would suggest to me that Vaella at least was born in KL, but what about the other five?

Also, would anyone agree that the fact that Aegon seems to have had good relations with Sunspear and Princess Deria of House Martell (who I guess to have been a granddaughter of the Yellow Toad, judging by the age of Princess Meria around the Conquest), because Rhaenys' body had been moved from wherever she had died to Sunspear, so Aegon could say goodbye in peace?

I mean, Lord Varys' notes say

Aegon kept up good relations with Princess Deria of Dorne, and visited Sunspear on Balerion with Aenys/Quicksilver.

Which does not specify whether there was only one visit or multiple. But that could be it, right? Not giving up the body (or remains) of Rhaenys to show the Targaryens who is dominant in Dorne, but allowing father and son to say goodbye as a gesture of good will.

[Jaak]

Not giving up the body (or remains) of Rhaenys to show the Targaryens who is dominant in Dorne, but allowing father and son to say goodbye as a gesture of good will.

Meraxes´ skull somehow ended up in Red Keep. When? During Aegon I? Under Daeron the Young Dragon´s sack? Under Daeron Falseborn´s marriage?

[TheReal_Rebel]

Anyone think that GRRM is purposefully raising doubts about the concept of a "One True King/Queen of Westeros". Jorah does this in the HBO series in his discussion with Daenerys over Aegon's conquest.

Why is GRRM calling into question the dynastic rule of the Targaeyeans? To bring about the concept of " fitness to Rule" over heredity.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Meraxes´ skull somehow ended up in Red Keep. When? During Aegon I? Under Daeron the Young Dragon´s sack? Under Daeron Falseborn´s marriage?

If I have to guess, I'd say that it happened when Daeron took Dorne. What better way to express your victory by taking back the price the Dornish once took from your family? If Daeron I hadn't been able to recover it (I have no idea how the Dornish would want to hide such a large dragon skull, but who knows..), then it most likely was returned upon the marriage of Mariah and Daeron II

[Arataniello]

Re-reading all the notes again, I must say I am a bit surprised that Aegon waited 35 years before deciding his "Aegonfort" wasn't good enough, and had to be replaced with something bigger and better. I always thought that he had made that decision earlier.

Which does not specify whether there was only one visit or multiple. But that could be it, right? Not giving up the body (or remains) of Rhaenys to show the Targaryens who is dominant in Dorne, but allowing father and son to say goodbye as a gesture of good will.

Somewhere in my comments, there is the information that Aegon would spend about half a year on a 'royal progress' around Westeros - if that is the case, then Aegon's Fort need not have been a major castle/residence. Dragonstone I think remained the pre-eminent Targaryen base, due to its importance in dragon hatchery, and while Targs still had dragons to get there and back swiftly.

WRT to relations with Dorne,I had some cryptic squiggles in my notes concerning Aegon I attending a ten year anniversary feast in Dorne. I didn't ever include this in my write-up as I could not remember any more details about it. and my co-recorders were not able to jog my memory.

[Maia]

So, why was Gorgon Qoherys's behaviour considered outrageous? Was the First Night already largely abandoned in the South at that time and/or replaced with certain payments by the groom/couple upon marriage, bringing it closer to how it was iRL? It is difficult for me to imagine that Harren's family wouldn't have done some First Nighting, but who knows... Anyway, it seems that Jaehaeys didn't abolish it purely out of the goodness of his and/or Alysanne's heart, but because it was causing problems. Though the northeners who still secretly practice it don't seem to have any, hm...

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

I seem to recall that prior to moving the complete court to Dragonstone in 35, Aegon did spend much of his time on Dragonstone anyway. Maegor only became 'the Prince on Dragonstone' because he was, apparently, always there, whereas Aenys also accompanied his father and traveled the Realm.

Nothing on the birthplaces of Aenys' children, I'm afraid. Could be either Dragonstone or KL. I'd imagine that some were born on Dragonstone, and some in the Aegonsfort - or all in Dragonstone. If the court spend time on Dragonstone regularly, Alyssa and Aenys most likely spent the time of her pregnancy there. The citadel was not a wooden castle, after all...

I guess Meraxes skull was returned to Aegon when the Martells brokered a peace with the Targaryens - no idea how that would have worked, though, but it apparently happened. I'd imagine that the skull would not have survived - or would have been lost - if we assume that it was only taken by the Targaryens during Daeron's Conquest or given to them after the unification by Prince Maron.

Arataniello is right that the visit to Sunspear especially mentioned in the reading was some anniversary - possibly a anniversary of a peace treaty. It begins with something like 'Aegon kept up good relations with Princess Deria, and even visited Sunspear for a feast/anniversary on Balerion.' Aenys accompanied him on Quicksilver.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

WRT to relations with Dorne,I had some cryptic squiggles in my notes concerning Aegon I attending a ten year anniversary feast in Dorne. I didn't ever include this in my write-up as I could not remember any more details about it. and my co-recorders were not able to jog my memory.

Arataniello is right that the visit to Sunspear especially mentioned in the reading was some anniversary - possibly a anniversary of a peace treaty. It begins with something like 'Aegon kept up good relations with Princess Deria, and even visited Sunspear for a feast/anniversary on Balerion.' Aenys accompanied him on Quicksilver.

An anniversary for the peace treaty would have been in 20AC, or possibly 21AC, if we're talking about Aegon's war with Dorne, right? Because the war most likely ended shortly after Rhaenys died, right?

Any other possible anniversary that comes to mind would be Deria's 10-year rule, but do we know when Deria's rule began?

Thinking about Aenys and Quicksilver a bit more.. We don't know how old Quicksilver was before Aenys bonded with the dragon, but with the descriptions given of Aenys, it seems to me that Quicksilver must have been a rather small dragon, for anyone allowing Aenys near the dragons.

In fact, with the descriptions given of Aenys (sickly and weak, always crying, people fear he'll die), it seems rather weird that someone would have allowed the boy to try and bond with a dragon. That can go badly, and make Aegon end up without an heir (because by then, Aenys was Aegon's only child). It is possible that Visenya was at least pregnant by now, but still...

[Arataniello]

Thinking about Aenys and Quicksilver a bit more.. We don't know how old Quicksilver was before Aenys bonded with the dragon, but with the descriptions given of Aenys, it seems to me that Quicksilver must have been a rather small dragon, for anyone allowing Aenys near the dragons.

In fact, with the descriptions given of Aenys (sickly and weak, always crying, people fear he'll die), it seems rather weird that someone would have allowed the boy to try and bond with a dragon. That can go badly, and make Aegon end up without an heir (because by then, Aenys was Aegon's only child). It is possible that Visenya was at least pregnant by now, but still...

I touched on these issues obliquely in my notes from the reading.

It was not clear when the bonding with Quicksilver and Aenys' strengthening took place, other than it being after his mother's death and his regression back to the crawling stage, but it would appear implausible that a toddler or young child would have been able to bond with any dragon that was something other than a hatchling.

Maybe Aenys was the first Targ to be given an egg, and he bonded with the newly-hatched Quicksilver as some sort of radical therapy to address his retarded* development.

*in the sense of "restricted".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I touched on these issues obliquely in my notes from the reading.

It was not clear when the bonding with Quicksilver and Aenys' strengthening took place, other than it being after his mother's death and his regression back to the crawling stage, but it would appear implausible that a toddler or young child would have been able to bond with any dragon that was something other than a hatchling.

Maybe Aenys was the first Targ to be given an egg, and he bonded with the newly-hatched Quicksilver as some sort of radical therapy to address his retarded* development.

*in the sense of "restricted".

Possible.. And with the effect that giving Aenys an egg would have had, it might have inspired giving all future Targaryen children an egg in the cradle whenever possible..

I mean, that "tradition" will have had some kind of origin, and it seems that it wasn't done regularly yet around this time (otherwise, Maegor would have had a dragon of his own before Balerion).

[Lord Varys]

I think it was the 20-year-anniversary of the peace treaty between Dorne and the Iron Throne, and occurred in the 30s. Aenys was no longer a child.

The impression I got - from the reading I attended as well as the reports on the last reading of 'The Sons of the Dragon' - is that Aenys' bonding with Quicksilver was actually a blessing for him - 'as the dragon grew, so did Aenys'.

George really touched the dragon stuff only in passing - 'half a dozen dragons had hatched on Dragonstone since the Targaryen Conquest'. That was it, then the thing about two eggs hatching after Aenys named Maegor Hand.

There is no indication that Aenys - or Maegor, or any of Aenys' children - were given dragon eggs. It rather seems that three-year-old Aenys was exposed to some of the young hatchlings, and quickly chose one and bonded with him.

It's clear that the king controlled the access to the dragon eggs via royal decree during Viserys' time. My guess is that th eggs-in-the-cradle thing began during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

One could make a case, I guess, that the Targaryens of that day and age were not considered to be 'complete' until they had a dragon of their own, or that bonding with a dragon was considered to help a young Targaryen to overcome some of their maladies and illnesses.

Thinking about that, as of yet most of the really weird/mad Targaryens seem to be born after the death of the dragons - Baelor, Rhaegel, Aerion, Aerys. Aenys and Maegor have both issues, but they don't seem to be mad/weak in the sense many of the later Targaryens are - and in fact, Quicksilver really seemed to have Aenys' development a lot. And Maegor would be a very special case anyway, if magic was involved in his conception.

We don't really know anything in detail about Aenys children, but nothing suggests that Rhaena, Aegon, and Viserys were mad. Jaehaerys and Alysanne clearly weren't, and neither were Viserys and Daemon - their father Baelon clearly is remembered as a great guy -, nor Prince Aemon, Rhaenys, or her children. All of them were - most likely - dragonriders at one point of their lives.

And then there is this thing that many Targaryens seem to descend deeper into madness because they lack - or 'miss' - their dragons? That could be something to follow later on. It also seems that Dany becoming a dragonrider is going to be a huge change for him, and it should also come as no surprise that Tyrion becoming a dragonrider and learning the truth about his heritage, will be a huge change for him as well, finally overcoming the remnants of his depression, and perhaps completely changing his self-image and his perception of life.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just a thought, but Rhaenys died when Aenys was 3, and with all the notes you guys have taken, we know that Aenys bonded with a dragon at the age of 3 or 4, so 10 or 11 AC. We now also know that Visenya announced she was pregnant in 11AC.

Is it possible that Visenya, who was living on Dragonstone if I've understood it correctly, brought Aenys into the lair with hatchlings, with the hopes of Aenys dying while trying to claim a dragon? In a way to ensure that her child would be the heir to the throne?

[The hairy bear]

IMHO the notion that there were more "mad" Targaryens after the Dance of Dragons than before is not really supported by facts. Wasn't Aemond One-eye more sadistic than Aerion Brightflame? Isn't Jaehaera called "simple" as Rhaegel was? If Aerys II had had dragons available, wouldn't he become as cruel as Maegor? I honestly don't think that there's a noticeable increase in madness. And if it was, interbreeding would seem an easier justification.

[Lord Varys]

If Visenya had really wanted to kill Aenys, she could have poisoned him - which she eventually apparently did, anyway. I'd imagine that Aegon decided to give Aenys a dragon, not Visenya. In fact, when she urges him to take his dragons to Oldtown and KL to deal with the Faith, he addresses him as 'nephew', strongly suggesting that she never was even a stepmother for him...

But as I've said earlier, please do not reduce Visenya to the evil stepmother trope. She is not Alicent, nor Cersei. Visenya advocated the cause of her own son after he was born, but that does not mean she ever wanted a child with Aegon to begin with. The fact that Maegor is the second born, and was apparently conceived under very strange circumstances, strongly suggests that Visenya only conceded to do whatever she did to get pregnant after she had talked to Aegon.

Later Visenya considered Aenys incapable of dealing with the challenges of kingship and (correctly) feared that Aenys might lose everything she and her siblings had conquered. She, apparently, never tried actively to take him out, nor did she conspire against him. There is no hint that she was behind/involved in the original rebellions, nor is it indicated that she did anything to undermine Aenys while Maegor and he ruled the Realm together. She helped Maegor to get a second wife, yes, and that strongly suggests that she was not exactly in league with the Faith, either - nor was she the one who fed Aenys the idea to marry Aegon to Rhaena - that was his own design, born from tradition and the sense to future Targaryen greatness.

Aenys also hurt Visenya, when he named Aegon Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place - afterwards, she abandoned Aenys and his family and retreated to Dragonstone. When Aenys and his family arrived there, she tried to push him to make the right decision - from her POV - to attack the Faith with all his might - to save the Targaryen rule of Westeros. When Aenys failed to do anything at all, she killed him to save the dynasty. That this also happened at a convenient time for her and Maegor - Aegon and Rhaena were besieged in Crakehall - is not her design.

On the dragon thing:

Sadism is not madness. The two clearly mad Targaryens are Rhaegel and Aerys II, both without dragons. Baelor was somewhat deranged. Specific dragon obsessed signs of madness can be found in many Targaryens - Aerys II (obsession with fire, and belief he would transform into a living dragon), Aerion (belief he was a living dragon in human form, and would transform into a dragon). Others - Aegon V, Daeron the Drunken - were apparently also killed by their dragon dreams.

The dragon trope of the Targaryen madness was most certainly not existent in the Targaryens who still had actual dragons. It's certainly no coincidence that GRRM designed them this way. Aemond and Daemon were rash in their youth, and show sadistic tendencies, but they were never mad (although Aemond was not very bright).

As to maladies caused by incest: If such maladies exist - and this does not seem to be the case, since no Targaryen seems to suffer from real world maladies caused by long-term incest - then they should gradually better, not worsen, since the peak of the incest most certainly was pre-Conquest - on Dragonstone, and in Valyria, where the practice began. In Westeros the incest was continued, but there were a lot of infusions of non-Valyrian blood, especially after the dragons died.

Rhaenyra has Arryn ancestors, Viserys II apparently had a non-Targaryen wife, Daeron II married Myriah, Maekar's wife is as of yet unknown, but a sister is not very likely, and Egg and Jaehaerys most likely did not marry a sister.

[Jaak]

About these progresses...

We see one progress in Game of Thrones. Robert did NOT haul half his court along to Winterfell. Hand was vacant, Master of Ships sulking on Dragonstone and deserting his duties, and Master of Coin, Master of Laws, Grand Maester, Master of Whisperers and Lord Commander of Kingsguard were left behind at King´s Landing, till Master of Laws and Lord Commander also left to meet King in Riverlands.

We hear of a few more progresses, like one to Casterly Rock.

No progress in Dunk and Egg - Daeron and Aerys both stayed home

No progress in Princess and Queen, just military expeditions by king and queen

And no progress in Rogue Prince either - Viserys stayed home and if he went anywhere, it was to Dragonstone.

Do we hear which half of the court Aegon I and Aenys hauled on their progresses?

Also: High Septon is at Great Sept of Baelor in Game of Thrones, but in Oldtown as of Princess and Queen.

Grand Maester was attested in Rogue Prince and Princess and Queen - residing at Red Keep and sitting the Small Council.

Is any Grand Maester attested under Aegon I or Aenys? And where?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

About these progresses...

We see one progress in Game of Thrones. Robert did NOT haul half his court along to Winterfell. Hand was vacant, Master of Ships sulking on Dragonstone and deserting his duties, and Master of Coin, Master of Laws, Grand Maester, Master of Whisperers and Lord Commander of Kingsguard were left behind at King´s Landing, till Master of Laws and Lord Commander also left to meet King in Riverlands.

We hear of a few more progresses, like one to Casterly Rock.

No progress in Dunk and Egg - Daeron and Aerys both stayed home

No progress in Princess and Queen, just military expeditions by king and queen

And no progress in Rogue Prince either - Viserys stayed home and if he went anywhere, it was to Dragonstone.

Do we hear which half of the court Aegon I and Aenys hauled on their progresses?

Also: High Septon is at Great Sept of Baelor in Game of Thrones, but in Oldtown as of Princess and Queen.

Grand Maester was attested in Rogue Prince and Princess and Queen - residing at Red Keep and sitting the Small Council.

Is any Grand Maester attested under Aegon I or Aenys? And where?

Well, that's not really a fair comparison..

In A Game of Thrones we see a royal progress in the few months of peace that we have. After that, there is war, and in war, a royal progress is not at all a priority.

Dunk & Egg cover small periods of time each time a year or more after one another. In addition, Daeron II was an old men when he died, and Aerys I doesn't seem to be the type.

TPATQ: Again, a war was being fought. A royal progress was not at all what should have been done at such an occassion.

TRP: We do see Viserys and court visiting places every now and then, though it seems that usually, Viserys lets everyone come to him.

And of course the High Septon wouldn't be in the Great Sept of Baelor during TPATQ.. As the name might suggest, the Great Sept of Baelor was build during the reign of Baelor I, which occured some time after TPATQ ;).

[lysmonger]

Guys.... COuld some of the madness could just be a fluke... Or perhaps mental instability that comes with rule?

[Lord Varys]

Not really. Of the mad Targaryens, only Aerys technically ruled, and I'm not sure why anyone under pressure should start to consider himself a dragon in human form. Do you?

[HexMachina]

And of course the High Septon wouldn't be in the Great Sept of Baelor during TPATQ.. As the name might suggest, the Great Sept of Baelor was build during the reign of Baelor I, which occured some time after TPATQ ;).

Yeah, he should be at the Starry Sept of Oldtown. Presumably, Septon Eustace was some sort of representative of the Faith at the Targaryen court.