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LonCon / Sons of the Dragon v2


yolkboy

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every Targ is more than what they seem to be honest so visenya was indeed more than that.

Aemond, Aegon II, Helaene, Aerys II were all pretty much like advertised. I hope they make Visenya into a complicated character, instead of just a powercrazy banshee out to destroy everyone who stands in the way of dear little Maegor.

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Aemond, Aegon II, Helaene, Aerys II were all pretty much like advertised. I hope they make Visenya into a complicated character, instead of just a powercrazy banshee out to destroy everyone who stands in the way of dear little Maegor.

Wait, what's with Helaena's description? I feel like there might have been much more to her, and that the only reason that we haven't seen that yet in TPATQ, was because of the editing.. Like how her reaction to Viserys' death was edited out, for example.

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As for Aerion, his drinking of wildfire certainly appears like an insane deed, but I don't think he was insane - at least not early in life. For one, he was aware that Maekar wouldn't approve if he learnt of his bullying of others, so he always behaved around him. He knew there were limits, even for him. He was a sadist with a giant ego, but with some cunning and IMO very much like a dragonless Aemond would be.

Yeah, I think Aerion was just an asshole who got drunk and did something really really stupid.

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On the madness thing:



Aerys was mad, but he was never personally sadistic in the sense that he liked sadistic practices in bed, or personally tortured or killed people. Daemon did that, he was clearly into that, I think, and Aemond also seems to have had such tendencies, although it's not really clear whether they did actually got aroused by this stuff, or if they just mistreated servants to get off steam.



This behavior has nothing to do with the real madness issues Aerys II and Rhaegel suffered from. I'd go as far to suggest that violent outbursts and cruel punishments (burning people alive) was a thing Aerys II developed only very late during his reign, i.e. sometime after Duskendale. If Aerys had been mad and cruel all his life, people would have turned against much sooner.



Aerion was not truly mad - at least not back in THK - but he had mad tendencies (the belief that he was a dragon in human form), and met a mad end. I really don't think you drink wildfire to transform yourself into a dragon by accident. That must have been part of some sort of magical ritual. Fire and blood, fire and dragons.



But my point was:



1. It may be that the Targaryens need dragons to be 'complete'. The fact that Aenys' condition improved after he bonded with Quicksilver may be a hint in that direction.



2. If this is the case, then a lot of the dragon issues the Targaryens had after the death of the dragons - dragon dreams (Daeron the Drunk), obsession with dragons (various Targaryens, including Aegon V), dragon madness (Aerion & Aerys II) may have been caused by the lack of the dragons, i.e. they wanted to bond with a dragon, but could not.



3. If the dragons also helped the Targaryens to get better in various ways (i.e. if Aenys got better because of Quicksilver), then the lack of dragons could explain why there were this many pitiful/weak Targaryens between Aegon III and Daenerys - Baelor the Blessed, Naerys, Rhaegel, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II etc.



That's just an idea, but I really think this could make sense.


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On the madness thing:

Aerion was not truly mad - at least not back in THK - but he had mad tendencies (the belief that he was a dragon in human form), and met a mad end. I really don't think you drink wildfire to transform yourself into a dragon by accident. That must have been part of some sort of magical ritual. Fire and blood, fire and dragons.

Don't people sometimes talk about Targaryen's sorta being dragons in human form? Like calling Rhaegar the last dragon? Anyway I really don't see Aerion's death as some magic ritual gone wrong. Maekar would not have allowed it, though I guess he could have gone behind his father's back. I really bet he was out drinking with his supporters and friends and somehow the idea came into his head and he made a really bad impulsive decision to wake up the Alchemists and demand a glass of wildfire.

1. It may be that the Targaryens need dragons to be 'complete'. The fact that Aenys' condition improved after he bonded with Quicksilver may be a hint in that direction.

That is an interesting idea. Maybe not all Targaryens but the "special" ones who have that magic drop of dragonblood that would have allowed them to be riders before the dragons died.

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Well, it really seems that all the Targaryens prior to the Dance were successful dragonriders, no? At least we don't yet know anything about a Targaryen who was rejected by a dragon/hatchling. I could see a child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne not getting a dragon because there were not enough dragons/eggs (they had nine children, after all), but I'd be really surprised if a Targaryen who tried to claim a dragon was rejected.



Ran's quote referred to the special drop of dragonlord blood in non-incest-born descendants of dragonlords, not those who kept their blood pure via incest, didn't it?



Aemon claimed that all his brothers died due to their dragon dreams. That would include Aerion. He must have been really obsessed, and the delusion to be a dragon in human form must have gotten worse and worse over the years.



Another thing possibly hinting at the important role the dragons played in the lives of their riders is that a lot of dragonriders seemed to have been mostly/only into dragon-riding, at least for time (especially telling in the case of Laena).


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Wait, what's with Helaena's description? I feel like there might have been much more to her, and that the only reason that we haven't seen that yet in TPATQ, was because of the editing.. Like how her reaction to Viserys' death was edited out, for example.

I don't reall think that she was in on the poisoning. I think she's pretty straightforward, someone who really wanted to stay out of all the conflict but was dragged in anyway and payed the price for it.

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Wait, what's with Helaena's description? I feel like there might have been much more to her, and that the only reason that we haven't seen that yet in TPATQ, was because of the editing.. Like how her reaction to Viserys' death was edited out, for example.

Was there any reaction in original that was edited out, or was none mentioned in original?

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Well, it really seems that all the Targaryens prior to the Dance were successful dragonriders, no? At least we don't yet know anything about a Targaryen who was rejected by a dragon/hatchling. I could see a child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne not getting a dragon because there were not enough dragons/eggs (they had nine children, after all), but I'd be really surprised if a Targaryen who tried to claim a dragon was rejected.

Ran's quote referred to the special drop of dragonlord blood in non-incest-born descendants of dragonlords, not those who kept their blood pure via incest, didn't it?

Aemon claimed that all his brothers died due to their dragon dreams. That would include Aerion. He must have been really obsessed, and the delusion to be a dragon in human form must have gotten worse and worse over the years.

Another thing possibly hinting at the important role the dragons played in the lives of their riders is that a lot of dragonriders seemed to have been mostly/only into dragon-riding, at least for time (especially telling in the case of Laena).

Yeah but later down the line in the time of Aerion and Aerys the bloodline presumably wasn't as pure, so who knows if Daeron the Drunk for example would have what it takes to ride a dragon.

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I don't reall think that she was in on the poisoning. I think she's pretty straightforward, someone who really wanted to stay out of all the conflict but was dragged in anyway and payed the price for it.

I agree.

Was there any reaction in original that was edited out, or was none mentioned in original?

I've never seen an original :p So I can't tell. But it feels like there is something missing between the KG walking to Helaena, and the line about where the KG could find Aegon.

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Yeah but later down the line in the time of Aerion and Aerys the bloodline presumably wasn't as pure, so who knows if Daeron the Drunk for example would have what it takes to ride a dragon.

Well if Ulf the Sot can do it...

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Well if Ulf the Sot can do it...

Well I meant because his blood wasn't pure enough, not because he was drunk. I wonder if Ulf ever got into an accident flying Silverwing after he'd had a few too many.

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On the madness thing:

Aerys was mad, but he was never personally sadistic in the sense that he liked sadistic practices in bed

Tell that to Rhaella, or Jaime for that matter. Sorry, just being a smartass - your theory on dragon-bonding and the correlation between their extinction and numerous 'weak' Targaryens thereafter is quite intriguing and makes a lot of sense.

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Aerys' sexual preferences clearly changed later on - my point was that 20-year-old Aerys most likely neither left bite marks on Rhaella's breasts, nor did he burn people to prepare himself for intercourse. He really changed over the years, especially after Duskendale.



Aerion was a cruel prick even in his youth. Aerys apparently became very worse in the end, but did not start this way.


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Yeah, the famous lapses, but no one ever said they were connected to cruelty. It could have been Aerys being erratic or mad, not Aerys being cruel and mad. And it's clearly his madness (and paranoia) which pushed him towards cruelty, not the other way around.



We really don't know yet how Aerys' madness manifested itself in the early days.


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Gotcha, it was the 'never' part that made me go hm. I agree in terms of the direction of causality with Aerys - i.e. the increasing madness and paranoia caused the cruelty, whereas Aerion was more like dragon-riders Aemond and Daemon in his inherent cruelty. I would perhaps also add Aerys I to the list of 'weak' Targaryens in the AD (after dragons) period. However, I'm reticent to do so because his main feature is 'bookishness,' and that just perpetuates the conflation of fraility with being erudite. Plus he survived the spring sickness that took out three other Targaryens. OTOH, he did seem quite preoccupied with dragon-lore, to the point of neglecting his duties, so....yeah I'm torn.


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