LonCon / Sons of the Dragon v2

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, Aerys I (and Daeron II) would have been both physically frail, although not mentally/intellectually.

Continuing this dragonbinding stuff:

If I'm on to something here, then Dany's sudden strength after her first dragon dream - when the dragon's fire cleanses her, and she then is suddenly is able to continue riding and to suffer Drogo's affections - could be another hint in that direction. At that point, Dany's inert/dormant dragon-bonding ability awakes, and she connects with her egg - especially with the dragon looking like Drogon.

This magical connection, in turn, later enables Daenerys to hatch the dragon eggs...

[Jaak]

Note that by 37, Rhaena was 14.

Baela rode Moondancer at about 13. Joffrey was riding Tyraxes by 12, Laena was flying Vhagar and Helaena Dreamfyre at the same age, Aemond flew Vhagar at 10 and Rhaenyra Syrax at 7.

We see from Rogue Prince that Laena and Rhaenys did not fight on dragon to help their father and husband Corlys at Stepstones. Still, seeing how the 14 year old Rhaenyra raced Syrax between King´s Landing and Dragonstone... did Rhaena use Dreamfyre to join her father´s progress, or return to Dragonstone or Red Keep?

[Arataniello]

For those who wondered about the name "Davos Baratheon" as reported in the reading, see confirmation of a sort here -

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116403-looking-in-the-mush-for-some-world-book-content/

as well as indications of the a potential pointer to something that happened to Rhaena of Pentos in the Vale.

[Wmarshal]

I don't reall think that she was in on the poisoning. I think she's pretty straightforward, someone who really wanted to stay out of all the conflict but was dragged in anyway and payed the price for it.

I agree.

[HexMachina]

For those who wondered about the name "Davos Baratheon" as reported in the reading, see confirmation of a sort here -

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116403-looking-in-the-mush-for-some-world-book-content/

as well as indications of the a potential pointer to something that happened to Rhaena of Pentos in the Vale.

So, potentially Rhaena married a Corbray?

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, I suggested that a long time ago. Rhaena went to the Vale, and never came back when Rhaenyra called Joff to KL, so there must have been some reason for that. Her marriage could explain it. I imagine this was a love match, since there was no real reason why Rhaena should marry a Corbray - and Jeyne Arryn was backing Rhaenyra, anyway.

[Arataniello]

So, potentially Rhaena married a Corbray?

That's how I am guessing it fits together. The only other candidate is Baela, but Rhaena is in the Vale at the right time, whereas Baela is stuck on Dragonstone, badly injured, by the end of tPatQ.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps this is the best place to ask the following question:

I've seen that some of the info from the notes taken from the reading has appeared on the wiki this week (talking abour some dragon info, and some birth years here). Is this now allowed? Can the notes from the reading be placed onto the wiki (within reason, of course)? And if so, where do we link to?

[Lord Varys]

I'd wait for all of that until after TWoIaF has appeared. We have only reports of the reading, and even although I've made a report, I'd never assume that it was without glitches and mistakes...

[Arataniello]

Since the reading source material has not been published, it is still subject to change. My gut reaction would therefore be that it is not for inclusion in the wiki.

ISTR Ran posting something about information from the World book in the past, to the effect that there should be a blocked period before anything from the World book shows up in the wiki. The same thinking ought to be applied to material from the Grrrrmarillion, IMHO.

[The Dragon Demands]

Given that we've got about two months until the actual book comes out, I'm not too worried about it. I'm devoting my time now to knocking off other projects from my "to do list"...to clear more time for updates from World of Ice and Fire :)

Bigger question is that Elyo has mentioned in passing that he doesn't want the wiki to instantly include all updates from the book, because they want to encourage people to actually buy it. So....through the Xmas season?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

When a book is released (be it the World Book, or Winds, or a D&E), there is a three month spoiler period, where only specified info is allowed on the wiki. Ran agreed on the family trees, and I've suggested that for each new character, a new page is created with a two line summary for that character (to specify when he lived and who he's related to), so a reader can look up which character he or she is reading about, without reading spoilers (any info on what the character has done, or how he died, should not be added until after the spoiler period has ended).

Ran hasn't commented on that yet, but those who did agreed.

But I know enough about the notes ;)

[The Dragon Demands]

But I want to know! I want to learn what must be known!

[DanaKz]

Sorry, if you discussed it already, I was just thinking about it, and I need to ask your opinion.

Vermithor couldn't be born in 37. Whoever hatched in 37, it was not Vermithor.

In 130 AC he was "Almost a hundred years old" and "Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King himself; of all the dragons in Westeros, only Vhagar was older or larger" - so, he is even older than Cannibal (eldest from three wild dragons on Dragonstone) and Dreamfyre - Rhaena/Helaena's dragon.

Well, that's the question - how come that Aegon did not have a dragon at all (he rode Quicksilver, but only for one year - he died in 43), Jaehaerys, who was 8 years when his father died had an older dragon, and Rhaena get a younger.

Well, of course it means first Targaryens of 7k (and Targaryens on Dragonstone) didn't put dragon eggs to craddles, probably baby-Targs bonded with already harched baby-dragons.

But by the end of Viserys's reign it was already a custom, and people already cried "bad omen" when eggs given to children didn't hatch.

I suppose it is safe to presume this tradition was made by Jaehaerys the Old himself

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm.. I don't completely follow. Why can't Vermithor have hatched in 37AC?

Vermithor was older than Dreamfyre. That could be only by a year, for example. That would mean that Dreamfyre was born in 38AC, and was 4 when Rhaena and Aegon were away, and Aenys died. We don't even know whether Rhaena had Dreamfyre with her when visiting Casterly Rock. At 4, Dreamfyre might have been large enough to ride already.

We don't know if Jaehaerys bonded with his dragon prior to Aenys' death, do we? Aegon might have had a hatcheling, but it died, as happened to Rhaena of Pentos.

I agree that Jaehaerys might have started the "putting eggs in the cradle" thing. Perhaps the part about it being a bad omen when they didn't hatch, was because some of Jaehaerys' kids had eggs that didn't hatch?

[Lord Varys]

Additional tidbit there:

I double-checked our notes on the reading, and my according to my girlfriend's notes - I couldn't make out all our handwriting back in London - it seems that the six hatchlings were born only in the second half of Aegon's reign - suggesting that Quicksilver, who bonded with Aenys in 10/11 does not belong to those dragons, which, in turn, makes it likely that the total count of the known Targaryen dragon hatchlings in 37 would be nine, not eight (Quicksilver + six + the two who hatched after Maegor was named Hand).

Also, Aenys' crown was not made according to his design, but a gift of the High Septon - the one who later addressed him as 'King Abomination' - had made for him, and placed on his head when he anointed him. It apparently also included pictures or illuminations of the Seven in the gold workings.

As to Vermithor:

If he hatched in 37 AC, he would have been 93 years old in 130 AC. This could be described as close to hundred years, age-wise. But it was just my speculation that those two dragons were Vermithor and Silverwing, that was never stated in the reading.

Another possibility is that Vermithor hatched around Jaehaerys' birth, or was even a few years older. For instance, he could have been the Prince Viserys' former dragon, and became only Jaehaerys' mount after Viserys died during Maegor's reign.

If I remember it correctly, then Vermithor's age is only mentioned in relation to the other dragons after Vhagar's and Dreamfyre's death, suggesting that Dreamfyre may have been older - although not necessarily larger. Age should be a factor in dragon growth, but I guess just as there are smaller and taller humans, there are also smaller and larger dragons...

On the other dragons:

I'd be surprised if Rhaena only bonded with Dreamfyre during the reign of Aenys. If Aenys is an example, then she, Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne all would have been given hatchlings during their infancy/early childhood.

Aegon could have been either dragonless - his hatchling may have died young - or he lost his young dragon when he and Rhaena were attacked during their progress, or while they were besieged in Crakehall. Rhaena was 18, but Aegon only 15 when they were married in 41, thus Aegon's dragon may have been not yet all that large at this time...

Both the Cannibal and Sheepstealer would have hatched during the reign of Aegon I or in the early years of Aenys, since the Cannibal must be older than Sheepstealer, and Sheepstealer supposedly hatched when 'the Old King as still young' - which would have been the case in 37 AC.

For Aenys it is confirmed that he did not get an egg. Or at least it was not mentioned that he first got an egg, but rather that he eventually bonded with a hatchling who was then Quicksilver. But the whole thing about Maegor chosen one of the six hatchlings strongly suggest that he was not given an egg - which would have been essentially 'his dragon', if it had hatched - but rather that he (and Aenys) had not received an egg.

TRP suggests that the king controlled the access to dragon eggs via royal decree. I imagine that this practice came up during the reign of Jaehaerys as a means to control who would become a dragonrider.

[DanaKz]

@Lord Varys:

It was said "of all the dragons in Westeros, only Vhagar was older or larger" - even if Dreamfyre was already dead (and she wasn't, iin the book it was said before Maidenpool, when Dreamfyre and Vhagar were still alive), Dreamfyre wasn't mentioned in these words.

As for Sheepstealer: it was said "Old King was still young", it can mean "was not yet old", so Jaehaerys was or in his minorities, on in his teens, or twentysomething. Anyway, he has to be younger than Cannibal. and Cannibal was younger than Vermithor.

Anyway, it can be that all 6 hatchlings rejected by Maegor never knew saddle, or one of them was Vermithor and another one was Jaehaerys's 6th dragon with rider unknown.

I mean, when Jaehaerys and Alysanne came to Winterfell, they had 6 dragons with them. That were Vermithor and Silverwing of course, but Vhagar, Balerion and Dreamfyre were still alive, so probably they were in this group as well.

Well, probably Balerion didn't go to Winterfell, I am sure it would be mentioned in the history if he did... He could be without rider on the Dragonstone by this time...

[DanaKz]

Hm, probably Meleys was older than Vermithor. It was said that she stood a chance against Vhagar, and Vermithor's age was compared to all others after Meleys's death.

Meleys could be older than Vermithor but younger than Vhagar.

[Lord Varys]

If I'm not mistaken, then the Vermithor comparison comes up during the Second Battle of Tumbleton, that is after the death of Vhagar/Caraxes, and after the deaths of the dragons in the Dragonpit, including Dreamfyre.

It would be difficult to assume, I think, that Rhaena did not yet claim Dreamfyre when Maegor took over - she may have bonded with her dragon during Aenys', or even Aegon's reign -, whereas it is somewhat likelier that Jaehaerys only bonded with Vermithor during the reign of his father or his uncle.

And yes, Sheepstealer could also have hatched somewhat later - during the reign of Maegor or the earlier years of the reign of Jaehaerys. But the Old King was also still young during the last years of Aegon I as well as throughout his father's reign.

[DanaKz]

If I'm not mistaken, then the Vermithor comparison comes up during the Second Battle of Tumbleton, that is after the death of Vhagar/Caraxes, and after the deaths of the dragons in the Dragonpit, including Dreamfyre.

No, after first Tumbleton:

Ser Ulf's ambitions must be accounted modest when compared to those of his fellow turncloak, Hugh Hammer. The son of a common blacksmith, Hammer was a huge man, with hands so strong that he was said to be able to twist steel bars into torcs. Though largely untrained in the art of war, his size and strength made him a fearsome foe. His weapon of choice was the warhammer, with which he delivered crushing, killing blows. In battle he rode Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King himself; of all the dragons in Westeros, only Vhagar was older or larger. For all these reasons, Lord Hammer (as he now styled himself) began to dream of crowns. "Why be a lord when you can be a king?" he told the men who began to gather round him.

Neither of the Two Betrayers seemed eager to help Prince Daeron press an attack on King's Landing. They had a great host, and three dragons besides, yet the queen had three dragons as well (as best they knew), and would have five once Prince Daemon returned with Nettles.