R+L=J v100

[UnmaskedLurker]

:lol:

I lost the posts I was quoting, but I'll clarify myself a bit.

I didn't intend to say that Robert and Rhaegar would parley in good terms. That never was going to happen. But, let's remember how Oberyn faced the Mountain: "you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children". For Robert, Rhaegar was doing the same (except the killing of children. He was actually making some, heh). I can imagine Robert actually shouting that at Rhaegar, that he was a rapist, that he kidnapped Lyanna and that he would die for it. Did Rhaegar keep it silent and let him speak? Or he actually reacted at the notion of him hurting the woman he loved and told Robert the true in the middle of the battle (battle that at first, he wasn't actually losing).

Whatever happened there, what I bring to consideration were Robert's intentions. Either he knew or he didn't what Ned was trying to do or where he went after the Battle/Siege/War, he doesn't actively try to look for Lyanna on his own, nor send men to her. As Prettypig said, for him, Lyanna is pretty much dead for him, even though she's alive. What if, just after the Trident, after Rhaegar actually said "I'm keeping her safe" Robert actually send men for her? Maybe, she could have been saved. But not, in fact, inderectly, Robert's actions could have been what caused her to die: he kills Rhaegar, she is told about it and she's kept hidden because they're in danger, she probably had little access to a good maester, she gets sick and died.

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

/rant over. but sometimes, I hate Ned too.

Your clarifications have not cause me to agree with you any more--I still see things totally differently than you do.

Oberyn was fool for talking during battle. I highly doubt either Rhaegar or Robert would have spoken during their fight. And nothing Rhaegar could have said would have been believed by Robert. Robert might have wanted some kind of confession, but unlike Oberyn, Robert was not foolish enough to waste energy trying to get one. All Robert cared about was killing Rhaegar.

After the war ends, Robert has no reason to think about Lyanna--he would not know the first place to even start to look for her. It is pretty clear that Ned tells him nothing about looking for Lyanna--all Robert knows is that Ned is going to SE to lift the siege--nothing about going for Lyanna afterwards. Robert might or might not have been thinking about her, but he had no reason to think Ned knew where she was or how to go about trying to look for her. It just would not have been a consideration. And Lyanna was going to stay in hiding because the rebels won--not specifically because Rhaegar died. And I think Rhaegar meant for them to stay in hiding until after the baby was born in any event because Aerys also was not to know the location until Rhaegar was ready to expose the situation to the world.

As far as Ned's behavior toward Robert--I don't know why you think a different approach would have been better--it just would have hurt their relationship. Robert does not want to hear anything that contradicts his world view. And Ned wants to stay off the subject as much as possible. You may think Ned can go into the subject and guarantee Jon's safety--but Ned did not want to take even the smallest chance of slipping up. The only safe thing to do was to continue to let Robert believe what he wanted to believe. Ned really had no realistic alternative.

[JonSnow4President]

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

/rant over. but sometimes, I hate Ned too.

Hey Robert, Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, she loved every minute of this. Oh, what's this? This is my bastard, I promise. No, really, I ignored my oath to Catelyn, which I of course would never do, and fathered a bastard. I promise he's not Lyanna's son!!!

I don't think Robert is THAT thick.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

I've always pictured Robert yelling at Rhaegar and calling him a monster and a rapist and Rhaegar calling him an idiot and/or taunting him by saying Lyanna never lover him. But that's fan fiction, who the hell knows.

I agree 200%. Ned doesn't like confrontation.

Yes, he was not meant to judge. That was to be his brother's duty. Ned lived his life thinking he would obey. He may have had a feeling that it is not his place to decide whether or not something is wrong. Till he comes of age and realizes he is now Lord of Winterfell

[BearQueen87]

Hey Robert, Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, she loved every minute of this. Oh, what's this? This is my bastard, I promise. No, really, I ignored my oath to Catelyn, which I of course would never do, and fathered a bastard. I promise he's not Lyanna's son!!!

I don't think Robert is THAT thick.

I just about to say the same thing. Robert isn't a total moron. And if honorable Ned sits his BFF down and says, "my sister was in love with Rhaegar" and then simultaneously says, "oh this is my bastard...pay not attention to him." Even Robert might connect some dots.

Had there never been a baby, Ned might have told Robert. But baby Jon changes all the things.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think Robert is THAT thick.

We know he is.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UbpSd0__528/UfbfTpHwppI/AAAAAAAAFIw/1VXTYNiu4-c/s640/blogger-image--1945099336.jpg

"All of your k_ds are the Kingslayer's"

"kads? kuds? don't get it".

[Julia Martell]

I just about to say the same thing. Robert isn't a total moron. And if honorable Ned sits his BFF down and says, "my sister was in love with Rhaegar" and then simultaneously says, "oh this is my bastard...pay not attention to him." Even Robert might connect some dots.

Had there never been a baby, Ned might have told Robert. But baby Jon changes all the things.

I agree. Again.

[UnmaskedLurker]

, "oh this is my bastard...pay not attention to him."

This quote makes me think that maybe if only Ned was able to play a Jedi mind trick on Robert, everything would have been fine. :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

We know he is.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UbpSd0__528/UfbfTpHwppI/AAAAAAAAFIw/1VXTYNiu4-c/s640/blogger-image--1945099336.jpg

"All of your k_ds are the Kingslayer's"

"kads? kuds? don't get it".

But how much of that is Robert not wanting to see the truth in front of him so that he can whore, drink, and eat his way to an early grave? Yes the evidence that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are not his is a bit...overwhelming. Plus, would you suspect your wife of sleeping with her twin?

OTOH, A baby the just the right age, and learning that Lyanna and R where in love....

This quote makes me think that maybe if only Ned was able to play a Jedi mind trick on Robert, everything would have been fine. :cool4:

Howland Reed is totally Yoda.

[UVA]

I don't think he wanted Robert for Lyanna.

Is your view from a pre- or post-Rebellion standpoint?

[Ser Duncan the Small]

I just about to say the same thing. Robert isn't a total moron. And if honorable Ned sits his BFF down and says, "my sister was in love with Rhaegar" and then simultaneously says, "oh this is my bastard...pay not attention to him." Even Robert might connect some dots.

Had there never been a baby, Ned might have told Robert. But baby Jon changes all the things.

How true this is for the entire story

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Is your view from a pre- or post-Rebellion standpoint?

Post-rebellion. More specifically post-seeing Roberts response to the Targaryen babes and allowing Jamie to live. He may have even thought so before hand, knowing who Robert truly was and even hearing from Lyanna what she thought about him, but Ned may have decided in his mind pre-rebellion it didn't matter what he thought of the match. He was a second son of Winterfell

[BearQueen87]

Post-rebellion. More specifically post-seeing Roberts response to the Targaryen babes and allowing Jamie to live. He may have even thought so before hand, knowing who Robert truly was and even hearing from Lyanna what she thought about him, but Ned may have decided in his mind pre-rebellion it didn't matter what he thought of the match. He was a second son of Winterfell

I think Ned was okay with the match pre-rebellion. When Lyanna and Ned speak about Robert at Winterfell, after HH, Lyanna expresses some concerns about Robert and his faithfulness and the conversation seems to suggest that Ned was trying to chat Robert up for Lyanna. Ned was probably okay with the idea of Robert being bound to him as a brother by blood.

I agree with you post-rebellion

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think Ned was okay with the match pre-rebellion. When Lyanna and Ned speak about Robert at Winterfell, after HH, Lyanna expresses some concerns about Robert and his faithfulness and the conversation seems to suggest that Ned was trying to chat Robert up for Lyanna. Ned was probably okay with the idea of Robert being bound to him as a brother by blood.

I agree with you post-rebellion

Maybe you are right about pre-rebellion--or maybe Ned was just trying to make the best of the situation as he assumed Lyanna would have to marry Robert. What good would it do to admit to her--yeah, he may be my friend but he is going to be a lousy husband and I wish you did not have to marry him. That is not Ned's style to admit anything like that or to think that saying something like that would make the situation better and not worse.

[Prince of the North]

Post-rebellion. More specifically post-seeing Roberts response to the Targaryen babes and allowing Jamie to live. He may have even thought so before hand, knowing who Robert truly was and even hearing from Lyanna what she thought about him, but Ned may have decided in his mind pre-rebellion it didn't matter what he thought of the match. He was a second son of Winterfell

Yes, and we can't forget the cultural norms of the setting in which the story takes place. Which were that the women in such arranged marriages didn't necessarily have much choice. But I think, in the aftermath of the Robellion and what I think Ned found out leading up to and culminating at the ToJ, Ned would have naturally changed his mind about a few things.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ned is completely unable to say "no" to Robert. If he ever thought he was a bad match for Lyanna, even if the thought was something he felt dee deep inside, he would rather convince himself Robert would change.

[Ser Creighton]

100? Already? Well you all have been chatty haven't you?

You know I think a little trip down memory lane is in order here. There have been many topics on R+L=J, here are a few of the greats.

The great sugar free gummy bear revenge debate of 2013. Aka how to give another poster diarrhea.

Ruby Chevrolet "Jon burnt his hand so he can't be a Targaryen, because Targaryens are fire proof" This went on for a months.

Sanka the little thread that wouldn't quit. Single greatest R+L=J thread of all time.

Tower of Joy or it's a boy.

Wheres Wylla?

Math threads. It's funny these often get annoying, but the irony of the math threads is that the title of the thread is in fact a mathematical formula.

Married or not married?

The Kingsguard.

Timelines.

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the morning or Morning wood?

Promise me the broken promise.

Blue roses, that are not really that blue.

Yiggy, kissed by fire. Well kissed by fire in more ways than one, in more places than one for that matter

There was a month long debate on the legality of weirwood weddings.

Good times, good times.

Now I was told I promised John Stamos, I seem to recall in fact that my feelings on Stamos are not all that kind. However if you want a little John Stamos, you shall have a little John Stamos and remember ladies this could be you. It's not you, but in an alternate reality like a parallel universe of something it could be you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocj_sGKFOIA

[Julia Martell]

Yeah, even given all we've said about Ned's non-confrontation even he couldn't handle the bullshit when Robert was all "Lyanna would have let me fight in the melee, boo hoo" and he was like "Dude, please, you have no idea what you're talking about!"

[Ser Creighton]

Mine too! He might actually be my most favourite character of the whole series. Such a shame he had to be GRRMed...

Oh foolish foolish Ygrain, of course he got GRRMed, that's what Grimms do, they hunt and kill the Blutbad or the man wolf. Please keep up.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have... John Stamos singing and dancing, btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvbiisNvZH4

Also, with Brittany S. Pierce. http://img2-3.timeinc.net/ew/i/2011/10/27/Stamos-Heather-Morris-Glee_610.jpg

[Chebyshov]

I don't see Ned bringing it up when he gives Robert the news of her death (as he's holding Jon). So his telling Robert that he didn't know her that well at the tourney may have been the first chance he had to even skirt the issue. And by that point it was clear that Robert was pretty incapable of change.