R+L=J v100

[BearQueen87]

The KG have no power to make Jon King. They have no lands, no armies, and no powerful allies with those things who will help them do so. Retaking the Iron Throne is a pipe dream even for Rhaella and Viserys on Dragonstone - who at least have a garrison and a bit of Westerosi territory left to them, and the support of Oberyn Martell - which amounted to nothing, in the end, but it's still a lot more than Jon has. ALL that they can help Jon with at this point is to survive and escape - and for that they need help. Ned is the only possible source they have, when he comes riding up.

If Jon is the last living legit son of Rhaegar Targaryen then yes, he is the Targaryen King. The only KG who switched sides to Bob (Barry) had to swear a new oath to a new dynasty. The other three at the TOJ did no such thing. They were loyal to the Targaryen monarchy, which meant that to them, Robert is no king, but the Usurper and the little baby in the Tower is the King.

Now, I agree...they would have gone into exile once Lyanna died and waited. Jon was supposed to have the life fAegon is living. Raised to be a perfect Targaryen prince and come back when the moment was right.

Ned is a possible source but they can't trust him. They just can't Not with his connections and uncertain loyalties. For all they know, Ned will listen to them and decide that Lyanna's boy must die because he's a Targaryen, just like Robert was 100% a-ok with Aegon and Rhaenys dying because they were Targaryens.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

But he grew up with Stark values.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Or, it is a big hint that Jon is legitmate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Apparently Lyanna being at the tower is no secret, it is specified in the App (see my signature for the quote).

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned. The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident, Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Roberts friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmys wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

We were not there, Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

Woe to the Usurper if we had been, said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaimes hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when Kings Landing fell.

Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Neds capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friends and the Kingsguards best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

Ser Willem is a good man and true, said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

But not of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold pointed out. The Kingsguard does not flee.

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Neds statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at Kings Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguards vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerolds decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Neds wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honors sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

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Wow. Thanks, MtnLion. It had been some time since I'd read through your piece, and I found the reread informative. Specifically, it now strikes me as remarkable that there is nothing at all in that recap to rule out the possibility that, in fact, it was young Aegon who was the beneficiary of the KG3's adherence to their vows.

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[BearQueen87]

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Wow. Thanks, MtnLion. It had been some time since I'd read through your piece, and I found the reread informative. Specifically, it now strikes me as remarkable that there is nothing at all in that recap to rule out the possibility that, in fact, it was young Aegon who was the beneficiary of the KG3's adherence to their vows.

.

In order for your scenario--that Aegon is in the TOJ--to work, can you answer some questions? I'll just throw them out there and see what you say and work from that.

1) How did Aegon get to the TOJ?

2) Why is Lyanna there?

3) Where is baby Jon?

4) What does Ned do with baby Aegon after the showdown?

5) Why is Rhaenys not there?

6) Why is Elia not there?

[anonnyscouse]

The question of how Ned knew that Lyanna was at ToJ is interesting though. If R+L=J or not then whoever told Ned where to go must know the truth too (or at least have a good idea) so where are they now, will we meet them?

[mambru]

Going back to this for a moment...

I disagree.

Gasp! :D

oh shock) Their place in the KG is to PROTECT. Baby King Jon cannot give orders but the first most important order stands. Protect the King or die trying.

ETA: and since I know what's coming next: Boar, Berry, Bob. Drunk, good hunter, no idea of missed thrust, doesn't count.

Duskendale: piffle, had 1 KG with him, KG died, more danger to rescue.

;)

How transparent I am.

But IIRC, you've agreed before that KG are capable of refraining from immediate combat if such will put the king's ultimate survival in more danger than trying alternate solutions...like at (yes) Duskendale...where the KG left Aerys alone going nuts in a dungeon while they waited for Tywin to find a safer diplomatic solution to the problem. Even when they came up with the idea of rescuing Aerys through the sewers, they waited till Tywin was about to attack Duskendale (probably guaranteeing Aerys' death) before they meekly asked permission of Tywin, the authority figure they apparently had to obey before they actually were allowed to try to PROTECT their own king.

Their king was unprotected, his life in danger, but the KG deferred to authority that they felt they had to OBEY before they could protect. Why did the KG defer to Tywin's orders to wait for six months while the king lay in a dungeon? Because they hoped his DIPLOMATIC solution might get the king out of danger more safely than a frontal assault.

I'd say that Lyanna and Jon are in a similar situation right now...a diplomatic solution would be a lot more helpful and less dangerous than a frontal assault. But while the KG have shown themselves perfectly willing to obey Tywin and sit idle while a diplomatic solution is tried, and humbly ask permission to do their "first duty" to protect the King...they do not allow Lyanna to try a diplomatic solution by negotiating with Ned and do not ask permission to go straight to the fight to the death for her brother - they just run roughshod over her wishes and do it, even though a diplomatic solution would be safer for Jon and immensely more helpful.

I'd say that shows the KG see a fundamental difference between Rhaegar and Cersei and Tywin and others they've allowed to command them in the past and future...and the likeliest difference is that they don't think Jon is the King and Jon's mother therefore has no power to command them.

[J. Stargaryen]

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Wow. Thanks, MtnLion. It had been some time since I'd read through your piece, and I found the reread informative. Specifically, it now strikes me as remarkable that there is nothing at all in that recap to rule out the possibility that, in fact, it was young Aegon who was the beneficiary of the KG3's adherence to their vows.

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There's nothing in the story that rules out Ned warging Cersei when he was executed either.

[anonnyscouse]

There's nothing in the story that rules out Ned warging Cersei when he was executed either.

:lol: :bowdown:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In order for your scenario--that Aegon is in the TOJ--to work, can you answer some questions? I'll just throw them out there and see what you say and work from that.

1) How did Aegon get to the TOJ?

2) Why is Lyanna there?

3) Where is baby Jon?

4) What does Ned do with baby Aegon after the showdown?

5) Why is Rhaenys not there?

6) Why is Elia not there?

Those are interesting questions, to which I expect you could find answers that would be compatible with Aegon's presence at the tower of joy. If you're curious and interested enough to make the attempt.

They are not, however, questions that I will answer to your satisfaction if you've already decided to dismiss the possibility that Aegon was there.

If you're interested, you should check out the thread I linked to in my previous posts.