R+L=J v100

[BearQueen87]

But here's the thing: Martin could still choose to make Aegon real at this point. He could still choose to make him fake. He could just as easily pick one or the other and it wouldn't destroy any of the clues laid down in the past books. The "mummer" in mummer's dragon could simply mean Varys, and not that the dragon is fake. And in ACoK, he could have done anything at all with Aegon's character that he wanted to. He wasn't 'stuck' with what he had already written, because he had barely written anything at all.

This does not hold true for R+L=J, though. if Martin tried to pull a switch on us after the first book, it wouldn't work because he put too many clues in the first book to change it at any point afterwards and have it make sense. That's what he is telling us when he talks about it...that he knows that people figured it out very quickly, and that even though he was tempted to change it, he didn't want to because then his clues would not make sense.

Agreed. Look at the other popular theories for Jon's parents. All of them fall short somehow. RLJ, though, fits from start to ADWD.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

I can certainly see this being a more likely scenario post-Reb. Ned is stunned, appalled by Robert's reaction, he's at the point of rejecting him as a friend at that point. This stands in contrast to Ned's thoughts and statements he made to Lyanna at Winterfell. At that time, Ned's friendship with Robert was at its height -- irrc , he and Robert are still wards of Jon Arryn -- Ned's pumping up Robert to Lyanna, who has expressed grave concerns about the prospect of marriage with Bob. It's hard to tell though by that brief exchange whether Ned is trying to assuage Lyanna or his own doubts about Robert devotion -- probably both.

I agree, to me it sounds like he's not trying to convince just Lyanna. I think after Robert's Dragonspawn remark Ned realizes Robert is not the man he thought he was. And later this issue is brought back to life when Dany is announced as with child and Robert reverts back to his kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on self. Ned rejects him as a man and friend then as well, almost even forsakes him as his King

[Julia Martell]

Agreed. Look at the other popular theories for Jon's parents. All of them fall short somehow. RLJ, though, fits from start to ADWD.

I've elsewhere referred to it as the Grand Unifying Theory of aSoIaF, you plug it in and, suddenly, EVERYTHING starts to make sense.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Actually, I think that the full realization of what Robert had become hit only after seeing Barra and her mother, and that the thought of Rhaegar not frequenting brothels is a masked acknowledgement that Lyanna was right, after all, and made the right choice of partner.

Great find, @Ygrain!

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Actually, I think that the full realization of what Robert had become hit only after seeing Barra and her mother, and that the thought of Rhaegar not frequenting brothels is a masked acknowledgement that Lyanna was right, after all, and made the right choice of partner.

This is a fantastic thought. I could not agree more than if it was something I thought of myself

[Julia Martell]

Actually, I think that the full realization of what Robert had become hit only after seeing Barra and her mother, and that the thought of Rhaegar not frequenting brothels is a masked acknowledgement that Lyanna was right, after all, and made the right choice of partner.

Seriously, genius. :bowdown:

And yet another instance of R+L=J and now everything makes sense. Imagine that.

[Ser Creighton]

Varys omitted Aegon from the list of people killed during the Sack back in AGoT and again in ACoK. Combined with the mummer's dragon vision (and the full use of the ambiguity of that vision) absolutely made the theory that Varys would come up with a fake dragon and call him Aegon feasible way back in ACoK. And indeed I've been told before that the (f)Aegon discussion started as a theory way back after ACoK.

Well that's a hell of a big assumption. From what I know, this sort of all started back in Aug 2000. With this.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/

This was not about a fake Aegon but rather about weather the kids were alive. That I understand, but until Martin said this it was not a major topic. This changed that.

So about a year later,

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1189/

Swords has been out over a year at this point. But again it's not about FAegon.

With 2 minor omissions and Dany's vision which lacks context. In order for that vision to have context you would have to take the omissions and not just say Aegon is alive but fake. So you read the Varys omission and go maybe Aegon is alive. Then Dany the slayer of lives and go oh Varys has planted a fake Aegon somewhere and Dany has to kill him. The Varys omission should not lead you to think FAegon it should lead you to think Aegon is alive. That's the entire conflict behind him being fake or real. But until he is revealed as being alive there is no context for the mummers dragon. There was a context for Aegon being alive and real. Do you follow? Until Aegon/FAegon is revealed and we see the story and who is behind it there is no context for the mummers dragon.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

But here's the thing: Martin could still choose to make Aegon real at this point. He could still choose to make him fake. He could just as easily pick one or the other and it wouldn't destroy any of the clues laid down in the past books. The "mummer" in mummer's dragon could simply mean Varys, and not that the dragon is fake. And in ACoK, he could have done anything at all with Aegon's character that he wanted to. He wasn't 'stuck' with what he had already written, because he had barely written anything at all.

This does not hold true for R+L=J, though. if Martin tried to pull a switch on us after the first book, it wouldn't work because he put too many clues in the first book to change it at any point afterwards and have it make sense. That's what he is telling us when he talks about it...that he knows that people figured it out very quickly, and that even though he was tempted to change it, he didn't want to because then his clues would not make sense.

Keeping this point in mind - that, to give Martin's storytelling full credit one must allow for the possibility that Aegon is the real deal - wouldn't it make sense to think that the Kingsguard knights at the tower of joy might have been there to defend and protect Aegon, rather than Jon Snow?

[Aeron_Damphair]

In 100 threads, there's bound to be some redundancy. I feel like I've said my piece on the subject which is why I kind of burnt out on participation in this thread, but I wanted to at least chime in on version 100.

I guess I can't wait until Winds of Winter and I hope that we'll have the full reveal, not just that R+L=J, but that if all had gone according to the line of succession, that Jon would have been the rightful king, as the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Here's hoping that we'll get The Winds of Winter, and our answers, soon.

[BearQueen87]

Keeping this point in mind - that, to give Martin's storytelling full credit one must allow for the possibility that Aegon is the real deal - wouldn't it make sense to think that the Kingsguard knights at the tower of joy might have been there to defend and protect Aegon, rather than Jon Snow?

But why is Lyanna there at the TOJ if the TOJ is to protect Aegon?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

But why is Lyanna there at the TOJ if the TOJ is to protect Aegon?

Who knows?

[Chebyshov]

Keeping this point in mind - that, to give Martin's storytelling full credit one must allow for the possibility that Aegon is the real deal - wouldn't it make sense to think that the Kingsguard knights at the tower of joy might have been there to defend and protect Aegon, rather than Jon Snow?

Varys smuggles him out and puts him at the ToJ then plays take-backsies?

[BearQueen87]

Who knows?

Well, if you acknowledge that Lyanna is at the TOJ--which is maybe the one thing we know beyond a doubt--then I don't know why she and Aegon are hiding out together given that Aegon isn't Lyanna's son.

And why doesn't Ned take baby Aegon? Does he just leave the baby there, hoping Varys would come along and collect the infant?

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Varys smuggles him out and puts him at the ToJ then plays take-backsies?

Yeah, this theory is odd. Then what? Ned is part of the fAegon conspiracy???

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Well, if you acknowledge that Lyanna is at the TOJ--which is maybe the one thing we know beyond a doubt--then I don't know why she and Aegon are hiding out together given that Aegon isn't Lyanna's son.

And why doesn't Ned take baby Aegon? Does he just leave the baby there, hoping Varys would come along and collect the infant?

No, he rides to Starfall with baby Aegon and leaves him there to replace Ashara's stillborn, who after a while loses her mind for he is a constant reminder of what she had lost, turns out Edric Dayne is really Aegon.

ETA: I realize now that Edric dayne is even described to have pale blond hair and Deep blue eyes that are almost purple. I know there is an age difference but what-if?

[BearQueen87]

No, he rides to Starfall with baby Aegon and leaves him there to replace Ashara's stillborn, who after a while loses her mind for he is a constant reminder of what she had lost, turns out Edric Dayne is really Aegon.

ETA: I realize now that Edric dayne is even described to have pale blond hair and Deep blue eyes that are almost purple. I know there is an age difference but what-if?

O______________O

Crackpottery is crackpottery

[Julia Martell]

Yeah, this theory is odd. Then what? Ned is part of the fAegon conspiracy???

All these Benjen + Lysa = Jon (or whatever) type theories are just like real conspiracy theories. They all involve massive amounts of people being in on a secret they probably have no reason to keep in the first place, and require layer upon layer of deception, plans within plans, and false flags...

You grab onto one little detail, like a lemon tree, to choose a random example, and all of a sudden it means the Queen AND Barak Obama are actually reptoids.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

O______________O

Crackpottery is crackpottery

I don't believe it I was actually being sarcastic, hence the ETA when I realized that it's closer to a theory than I thought.

[BearQueen87]

All these Benjen + Lysa = Jon (or whatever) type theories are just like real conspiracy theories. They all involve massive amounts of people being in on a secret they probably have no reason to keep in the first place, and require layer upon layer of deception, plans within plans, and false flags...

You grab onto one little detail, like a lemon tree, to choose a random example, and all of a sudden it means the Queen AND Barak Obama are actually reptoids.

1) Benjen + Lysa = Jon. This is the best one yet.

2) Is Lysa a secret Targ?

3) THE LEMON TREE IS A SECRET TARG

I don't believe it I was actually being sarcastic, hence the ETA when I realized that it's closer to a theory than I thought.

Lol. Gotcha.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor