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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

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UtherSnow:


Well dificult question. But the reveal could go sooner than most people think. Jon is likely to be coma for a while and I think that he is going to finish his dream about Winterfell's crypt. I don't know if that would be enough to reveal R+L=J because it would be too easy if Jon is the first to find out. So, there is the choice of Bran's vision but then i don't think it would be before the end of TWOW or, (my personal favorite, because !) Jaime with one or two more clues thrown to him could have an illumination.



Well, i'm amazed by people's restrain. I thought that V100 would be just about "100th F**k Yeah !"













so ...................................... R + L = J v100 F**k Yeah !


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Woo, 100!



I think we won't get the reveal until Winds, but probably rather early in it; the consequences have to play out somewhere, if only within Jon. But at the same time, this is GRRM's ultimate mystery - he won't reveal it before releasing the last book.


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UtherSnow:

Well dificult question. But the reveal could go sooner than most people think. Jon is likely to be coma for a while and I think that he is going to finish his dream about Winterfell's crypt. I don't know if that would be enough to reveal R+L=J because it would be too easy if Jon is the first to find out. So, there is the choice of Bran's vision but then i don't think it would be before the end of TWOW or, (my personal favorite, because !) Jaime with one or two more clues thrown to him could have an illumination.

Well, i'm amazed by people's restrain. I though that V100 would be just about "100th F**k Yeah !"

so ...................................... R + L = J v100 F**k Yeah !

Jaime as a kingsmaker for Jon>?I vote this.

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Whoo! 100! I couldn't stay up for it, but Yay!

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Happy RLJday, everyone! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:






I've never understood the R+L=J hysteria on these boards. (100 threads discussing a few passages of text, really?) Even assuming that the theory is true, how much of an impact on the story can it realistically have? Jon is a sworn brother of the nightswatch and even if he decided to forsake his vows why would he abandon the North with the whitewalker threat looming and all...? Besides, even when Jon eventually discovers the truth, how will he convince Westeros?




Well, you're perfectly right as to the assessment of Jon's current predicament. You need to take this to GRRM, or wait for the rest of the series, why he deemed fit to plant this mystery to Jon's background.


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Woo, 100!

I think we won't get the reveal until Winds, but probably rather early in it; the consequences have to play out somewhere, if only within Jon. But at the same time, this is GRRM's ultimate mystery - he won't reveal it before releasing the last book.

He's already said that he would reveal it in book 6.

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Lol 100 well done (or not?)

Insolence!

He's already said that he would reveal it in book 6.

Or was it "in the next book"? He's pulled that one so often.

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Insolence!

Or was it "in the next book"? He's pulled that one so often.

Nope, he was talking about his "big mystery" that some people figured out by the end of book 2, but he decided not to change it, even though he would reveal it in the 6th book.

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First of her name.

LOL Still undecided whether to open my 'Sassicaia 2004' or leaving it for my daughter's (British) university acceptance letter :lol:

Seven hells, it was v.25ish when I started posting :stunned:

Lady G, I listenend to episode 4 yesterday, while shamelessly bathing in the sun... Two words: pure brilliance. Yolkboy's little peek&tease almost got me killed (not to mention his utterance of the word 'ethos'... classical geekgasm ;)).

Open it now! And congratulations to your daughter.

Your asleep now, aren't you?

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Happy 100 thread day to us. So now that we have spent 100 threads talking about it, can we all admit now that R+L=J is just one big hoax? (just kidding :P )


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:cheers:


He's already said that he would reveal it in book 6.

So we only have around 3 more years of waiting. We should be able to reach v.200 by then.

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Congrats on making RLJv100 possible! This was my first "home" too, and you all continue to be some of the loveliest people on the forum.

Now I'm trying to remember what version the thread was on when I joined the forum. I want to say it was in the 30s.

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Happy 100th.

My first home as well. I think this forum is an example of the internet and social media done well.

It has been my pleasure to "meet" some truly amazing people from all over the world.

It has been my "therapy" through some very tough work situations, and it's given me an anchor to not worry myself to an early grave.

Here is to another 100, (when we will finally get our answers).

http://rs224.pbsrc.com/albums/dd222/hope_to_last/aSoIaF%20mini-comics/AOSIAF__2_by_Noe_Izumi.jpg~320x480

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Alright I had told myself that I would not do it but it's R+L=J v100 so. Not so long ago Kyoshi opened a thread connecting Jon's crypt dream, Theon's "feast for the dead" dream and Dany's vision about the Red Wedding in tHotU. The thread is here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112729-a-feast-for-the-dead-a-snow-in-the-tombs-a-dream-in-dust/?p=5933567

So, Kyoshi's theory is that Jon's and Theon's dreams are two parts of the same prophetic dream but from different vantage point: Jon in the crypt and Theon in Winterfell's Great Hall.

Theon’s Dream

In ACoK Theon has a dream where he is sitting in the Great Hall of Winterfell, surrounded by dead Starks and their servants. The door swings open and a bloody Robb walks into the hall:

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room.

Jon’s Dreams

In ASoS Jon has a dream where he is in the crypts of Winterfell. He knows there is a feast upstairs, in the Great Hall. In the dream he thinks the feast is only for Starks and because he is not a Stark but instead a Snow, he is not welcome at the feast:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark... – (Martin, 2000).

In ASoS we have the following interaction between Jon and Sam:

“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.”

The living have no place at the feast of the dead, [thought Sam]. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran’s not dead, Jon, he wanted to say.

I don't think that Dany's vision in the HotU is linked to this two dreams, at least not in the matter that concern us, ie R+L =J. But I, and others before me, have noticed a connection between Jaime's weirwood dream and Jon's crypt dream.

Jaime's dream

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.
He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.
Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”
They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself.Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.
The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.
“Sister, why has Father brought us here?”
“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark! Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .
From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”
The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought.In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”
Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.
Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.
“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”
“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”
In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.”
“I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.”
“We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.”
Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.
“Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There.”
He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .
“A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.”
“Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.
“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”
Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”
“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”
“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”
“He was your king,” said Darry.
“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.
“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn
.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.
“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.
“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.
The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.
“No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!

Heart pounding, he jerked awake.

Julia.H in the thread drew the connection between Jon and Jaime's dreams:

Jaime and Jon seems to be both beneath their childhood home and family castle: Jon is in the crypt and Jaime beneath Casterly Rock.

Then we have Jaime's burning sword who "went dark" and in Jon's dream "A light has gone out somewhere". I have gone deeper in the connection and I think that we can consider Jaime and Jon's dream as two side of the same dream as well (even if there is more than that connection in both dream of course !).

I think that Jaime could be elsewhere that in Casterly Rock in at least a part of his dream. He say it himself that he has never seem a place like that there: "There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?We know that he had this dream when he is sleeping on a weirwood's stump. The weirwoods are all connected as we know through Bran's POV and remembers.

Could Jaime also be somewhere beneath winterfell as well ?

- The water: There is pools in winterfell.

- An unknown place: it seems that there is lot of things beneath Winterfell, hidden ways, maybe tunnels, so why not a cave ?...

- There is "no lions, nor bears" but "direwolves".

- As Jon, Jaime has as well "no choice but to descend" even if like Jon, Jaime is terrified to do so but is forced by his ancestors.

As weirwoods are connected, maybe the crypt are all connected in dreams and Jaime is stuck somewhere between Casterly Rock and Winterfell ?

I have put in green all the parts of the dreams that I think connect Jon and Jaime's dream and in bolded blue the parts that ties Jon's, Theon's and Jaime's dream together. The three dreams have the same themes: death, family, identity... but I also think that one of the main connection between this three dreams, especially Jon and Jaime ones, is R+L=J. That is in red.

The revelation:

Many thinks that Jon while being coma next book will finish his dream and I agree. Some thinks that he will as well discover is parentage there. It is possible.

We know that Jon is condemned to go deeper in the crypt. He pass the Kings of Winter but he is not afraid of them, then comes the Lord of Winterfell, and Jon is still somewhat searching for his family, particulary for his father as the same time that he is claiming that he doesn't belong here because, according to him, he is not a Stark. But he has to keep going deeper in the crypt anyway and what is the last tomb in the crypt ? Lyanna's. Jon's dream is clearly about his struggle with his identity, and the fact that he doesn't want to finish the dream, that he is terrified, is IMO because he is unknowngly scared of finding the truth about his parentage.

Then, we have Theon's dream about the dead Starks as well with an emphasis on Lyanna : "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna". How can Theon possibly dream of Lyanna with a crown of blue roses ? He can't know the importance of that crown. Nor he can't know the detail of her death "the white gown spattered with gore". And there also the fact that she is "sad". No, this details are here for a reason IMO.

As for Jaime's dream, we have the appareance of Rhaegar that Jaime first believe is Eddard Stark which can be the answer of Jon's call for his father to help him. In Jaime's dream, Rhaegar's reproach to Jaime is not that Jaime have killed Aerys but that he did not protect his children.

The Kingsguard are also described as such : "They were armored all in snow (the "white snowy cloak" of the Kingsguard !), it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders". Is it a call from Rhaegar for Jaime to protect Jon ? An answer to Jon's call "Father ? Please, Father, help me !"( :crying: )It seems chronological: Jon calls for his father, Rhaegar more or less orders Jaime to protect his children, Jaime's sword goes dark and Jon see a light switch off. This ties well with Jaime willingness to redempt himself and his decision to not take arms against the Starks and the Tullys. Yes, I'm totally talking about Jaime the Kingmaker theory !

Plus, the scene is written with the same expression that the TOJ dream, "we all swore oaths", the "mist" used to describe the Kingsguard... I think everyone here is very familiar with the TOJ dream. Then, there is also : "Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" -> Jon's colors.

So, yep ! We have Jon wandering helplessly in Winterfell's crypt, struggling with his identity, calling for his father. And then, Rhaegar shows up in Jaime's dream and Lyanna in Theon's. And the three dreams share connections. :cool4:

Wow ! That was a long post ! But I couldn't resist ! I'm sure that this has already been discussed before but I don't remember a R+L=J thread with it. So , HAPPY R+L=J v100 !!!

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