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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

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I love it but a Jon-Rhaegar meeting in his dream will be weird,dont you think?I imagine something like this.

Rhaegar-I am your father

Jon-No you are not

Rhaegar-Yes i am

Jon-No you are not

Rhaegar-Yes i am

Jon-No you are not

Just trolling but i think the dreams are connected somehow like you and Ned as the foster-father of Jon will tell him the truth,who knows maybe he will meet his biological parents too.BTW i want Jaime The Kingsmakerrr.

:D Not gonna happen ! This is not Star Wars ! And Jon's real parents only appear in other people's dreams, where would be the fun if not ?

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The poor guy just didn't expect crazy people who stayed up until 3 in the morning to wait for an internet forum thread to be locked to pick apart every word he wrote and argue endlessly about whether the roses were there for medical purposes, or nearly symbolic.

Actually, what he indicated in a different interview I read about is that what he really did not anticipate was the coming of the Internet. When he wrote the first book, Internet cites did not really exist. He knew a few people would figure it out--but the Internet made that information public, which he had not anticipated. The irony, of course, is that apparently it was his own sponsored cite (I think he said it was called Dragonstone) on which he saw this information becoming so widely spread. And while he had the authority to take the particular posts down, he knew that would just be viewed as confirmation of the theory.

I think people make too much of the story being "spoiled" if people find out ahead of time. I think "shock value" is overrated, but maybe I am in the minority on this issue. But I have this question--if having the issue "spoiled" ruins the book--why would anyone ever bother to re-read the book? Obviously on a re-read, all spoilers are known to the reader.

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:D Not gonna happen ! This is not Star Wars ! And Jon's real parents only appear in other people's dreams, where would be the fun if not ?

I know i was kidding,he might see Lyanna in the crypts but Eddard will be the one to tell him the truth.

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The 6th book as in "the book that originally was supposed to be the 6th book" (which will now most likely be the 7th book), or the 6th book after he decided that he would try to write 7 books in total?

Because if it's the second option, than that would make me really happy :)

Interview was in 2014, so he is most definitely talking about TWoW.

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I think that Jaime could be elsewhere that in Casterly Rock in at least a part of his dream. He say it himself that he has never seem a place like that there: "There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?We know that he had this dream when he is sleeping on a weirwood's stump. The weirwoods are all connected as we know through Bran's POV and remembers.



...


So, yep ! We have Jon wandering helplessly in Winterfell's crypt, struggling with his identity, calling for his father. And then, Rhaegar shows up in Jaime's dream and Lyanna in Theon's. And the three dreams share connections. :cool4:






The bolded part gave me the chills. I generally analyze dreams only as self-contained and relevant to the character doing the dreaming, but the connection woven together by the weir-network is amazing. And it makes me want to go back and reread every dream sequence.



I agree that Dany's HOTU is a different beast all together.


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I think people make too much of the story being "spoiled" if people find out ahead of time. I think "shock value" is overrated, but maybe I am in the minority on this issue. But I have this question--if having the issue "spoiled" ruins the book--why would anyone ever bother to re-read the book? Obviously on a re-read, all spoilers are known to the reader.

You know what, I completely agree. I good development can get you again, and again, even when you know it's coming. (Red Wedding, anyone)

A shock is there for, like, 2 seconds.

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Did anyone saw my post ? Because BearQueen posted just a few seconds after me and the page changed. Or maybe, it had already been discussed to death and I didn't know that ?

Ah, sorry! But yes very nice job. A good essay to start off this 100th thread!

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The 6th book as in "the book that originally was supposed to be the 6th book" (which will now most likely be the 7th book), or the 6th book after he decided that he would try to write 7 books in total?

Because if it's the second option, than that would make me really happy :)

I think it is clear that this particular interview as after book 5 came out--so he knew what book 6 would be at the time. So, don't worry--be happy. :laugh:

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I think it is clear that this particular interview as after book 5 came out--so he knew what book 6 would be at the time. So, don't worry--be happy. :laugh:

Be happy and think about John Stamos!!!

(where is Ser Creighton?!?!?!)

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Well, I used to never post in this thing until some threads ago - and why the hell should I, the matter is clear...



But it has been fun to try to shake some of the heads gathered in here.



I really find one should not image the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna-story in all it's juicy details, especially not since we don't have a very strong textual basis. George really wants to reveal the whole story - or as as much as he wants to - over time, and we still lack important information to try to paint the whole picture.



But, anyway, it is really fun that this sort of eternal discussion thing exists...


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Be happy and think about John Stamos!!!

(where is Ser Creighton?!?!?!)

Seriously? What's this whole John Stamos thing?

Is Uncle Jesse also on Nuncle Island or something? (Nuncle Island! :commie: )

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Be happy and think about John Stamos!!!

(where is Ser Creighton?!?!?!)

Maybe this is his doing: http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/full-house-might-be-returning-with-the-original-cast-except-the-olsens-20140826 :dunno:

As a side note, these threads are what compelled me to sign-up for this site and start posting. So thank you to all the lovely people in here for that ^_^

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Interview was in 2014, so he is most definitely talking about TWoW.

:D

I think it is clear that this particular interview as after book 5 came out--so he knew what book 6 would be at the time. So, don't worry--be happy. :laugh:

And now the song is stuck in my head. :)

But yay! I'm happy now!

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Seriously? What's this whole John Stamos thing?

About 10 threads ago, Ser Creighton promised to throw a party when we got to 100 and would have Stamos at the party, so it has been a running joke ever since. But given that Stamos is not really my type, I am not sure I really care.

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Well, I used to never post in this thing until some threads ago - and why the hell should I, the matter is clear...

But it has been fun to try to shake some of the heads gathered in here.

I really find one should not image the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna-story in all it's juicy details, especially not since we don't have a very strong textual basis. George really wants to reveal the whole story - or as as much as he wants to - over time, and we still lack important information to try to paint the whole picture.

But, anyway, it is really fun that this sort of eternal discussion thing exists...

You should totally continue to post here. It's actually fun going 100 rounds with you. You make me think. That's what we're here for, right? All of us?

Seriously? What's this whole John Stamos thing?

Is Uncle Jesse also on Nuncle Island or something? (Nuncle Island! :commie: )

Ser Creighton told us we'd get John Stamos at our party. I don't quite remember how this conversation started but it was part of SC: Story Time which is always the BEST time. He also promised alcohol.

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I love it but a Jon-Rhaegar meeting in his dream will be weird,dont you think?I imagine something like this.

Rhaegar-I am your father

Jon-No you are not

Rhaegar-Yes i am

Jon-No you are not

Rhaegar-Yes i am

Jon-No you are not

Just trolling but i think the dreams are connected somehow like you and Ned as the foster-father of Jon will tell him the truth,who knows maybe he will meet his biological parents too.BTW i want Jaime The Kingsmakerrr.

I think it will go like this:

Rhaegar: DAMMIT son, stop whining, of course black is our color.

Did you get NOTHING from your mother?!

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The bolded part gave me the chills. I generally analyze dreams only as self-contained and relevant to the character doing the dreaming, but the connection woven together by the weir-network is amazing. And it makes me want to go back and reread every dream sequence.

I agree that Dany's HOTU is a different beast all together.

I think that the idea came from that thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110263-those-who-sing/?p=5797558

In all honesty, I'm going full crasy and want to re-read all dreams to see if they are not all connected. But at least with Jon's, Theon's and Jaime's ones, we are sure that there is some weirdwoods involved or something like Bloodraven intervention.

I think it will go like this:

Rhaegar: DAMMIT son, stop whining, of course black is our color.

Did you get NOTHING from your mother?!

:lol:

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Did anyone saw my post ? Because BearQueen posted just a few seconds after me and the page changed. Or maybe, it had already been discussed to death and I didn't know that ?

I thought it was really interesting, and will be giving it a closer look when I get the chance. :cheers:

---

:cheers: 100 R+L=J threads! :cheers:

Here's to pale blue roses, a tower long fallen, Ned's promise, and the coming winter.

---

Along with the oft-posted ToJ dream, this is probably my favorite R+L=J related passage in the series. Ned recalls the great tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, while being held in the dungeons.

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

Interesting that it was Dayne who knighted Jaime, Whent who helped him to his feet after he said his KG vows, and Hightower who placed the white cloak on his shoulders.

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The 6th book as in "the book that originally was supposed to be the 6th book" (which will now most likely be the 7th book), or the 6th book after he decided that he would try to write 7 books in total?

Because if it's the second option, than that would make me really happy :)

As the quote is from 2014, the 6th book is still supposed to be TWoW.

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Wow, 100 threads. You guys did it! You really did it! (I think I only stirred shit in the last 10 or so, so take no credit.) Party like it's thread (19)99!

Alright I had told myself that I would not do it but it's R+L=J v100 so. Not so long ago Kyoshi opened a thread connecting Jon's crypt dream, Theon's "feast for the dead" dream and Dany's vision about the Red Wedding in tHotU. The thread is here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112729-a-feast-for-the-dead-a-snow-in-the-tombs-a-dream-in-dust/?p=5933567

So, Kyoshi's theory is that Jon's and Theon's dreams are two parts of the same prophetic dream but from different vantage point: Jon in the crypt and Theon in Winterfell's Great Hall.

Theon’s Dream

In ACoK Theon has a dream where he is sitting in the Great Hall of Winterfell, surrounded by dead Starks and their servants. The door swings open and a bloody Robb walks into the hall:

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room.

Jon’s Dreams

In ASoS Jon has a dream where he is in the crypts of Winterfell. He knows there is a feast upstairs, in the Great Hall. In the dream he thinks the feast is only for Starks and because he is not a Stark but instead a Snow, he is not welcome at the feast:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark... – (Martin, 2000).

In ASoS we have the following interaction between Jon and Sam:

“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.”

The living have no place at the feast of the dead, [thought Sam]. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran’s not dead, Jon, he wanted to say.

I don't think that Dany's vision in the HotU is linked to this two dreams, at least not in the matter that concern us, ie R+L =J. But I, and others before me, have noticed a connection between Jaime's weirwood dream and Jon's crypt dream.

Jaime's dream

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.
He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.
Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”
They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself.Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.
The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.
“Sister, why has Father brought us here?”
“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark! Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .
From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”
The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought.In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”
Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.
Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.
“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”
“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”
In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.”
“I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.”
“We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.”
Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.
“Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There.”
He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .
“A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.”
“Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.
“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”
Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”
“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”
“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”
“He was your king,” said Darry.
“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.
“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn
.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.
“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.
“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.
The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.
“No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!

Heart pounding, he jerked awake.

Julia.H in the thread drew the connection between Jon and Jaime's dreams:

Jaime and Jon seems to be both beneath their childhood home and family castle: Jon is in the crypt and Jaime beneath Casterly Rock.

Then we have Jaime's burning sword who "went dark" and in Jon's dream "A light has gone out somewhere". I have gone deeper in the connection and I think that we can consider Jaime and Jon's dream as two side of the same dream as well (even if there is more than that connection in both dream of course !).

I think that Jaime could be elsewhere that in Casterly Rock in at least a part of his dream. He say it himself that he has never seem a place like that there: "There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?We know that he had this dream when he is sleeping on a weirwood's stump. The weirwoods are all connected as we know through Bran's POV and remembers.

Could Jaime also be somewhere beneath winterfell as well ?

- The water: There is pools in winterfell.

- An unknown place: it seems that there is lot of things beneath Winterfell, hidden ways, maybe tunnels, so why not a cave ?...

- There is "no lions, nor bears" but "direwolves".

- As Jon, Jaime has as well "no choice but to descend" even if like Jon, Jaime is terrified to do so but is forced by his ancestors.

As weirwoods are connected, maybe the crypt are all connected in dreams and Jaime is stuck somewhere between Casterly Rock and Winterfell ?

I have put in green all the parts of the dreams that I think connect Jon and Jaime's dream and in bolded blue the parts that ties Jon's, Theon's and Jaime's dream together. The three dreams have the same themes: death, family, identity... but I also think that one of the main connection between this three dreams, especially Jon and Jaime ones, is R+L=J. That is in red.

The revelation:

Many thinks that Jon while being coma next book will finish his dream and I agree. Some thinks that he will as well discover is parentage there. It is possible.

We know that Jon is condemned to go deeper in the crypt. He pass the Kings of Winter but he is not afraid of them, then comes the Lord of Winterfell, and Jon is still somewhat searching for his family, particulary for his father as the same time that he is claiming that he doesn't belong here because, according to him, he is not a Stark. But he has to keep going deeper in the crypt anyway and what is the last tomb in the crypt ? Lyanna's. Jon's dream is clearly about his struggle with his identity, and the fact that he doesn't want to finish the dream, that he is terrified, is IMO because he is unknowngly scared of finding the truth about his parentage.

Then, we have Theon's dream about the dead Starks as well with an emphasis on Lyanna : "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna". How can Theon possibly dream of Lyanna with a crown of blue roses ? He can't know the importance of that crown. Nor he can't know the detail of her death "the white gown spattered with gore". And there also the fact that she is "sad". No, this details are here for a reason IMO.

As for Jaime's dream, we have the appareance of Rhaegar that Jaime first believe is Eddard Stark which can be the answer of Jon's call for his father to help him. In Jaime's dream, Rhaegar's reproach to Jaime is not that Jaime have killed Aerys but that he did not protect his children.

The Kingsguard are also described as such : "They were armored all in snow (the "white snowy cloak" of the Kingsguard !), it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders". Is it a call from Rhaegar for Jaime to protect Jon ? An answer to Jon's call "Father ? Please, Father, help me !"( :crying: )It seems chronological: Jon calls for his father, Rhaegar more or less orders Jaime to protect his children, Jaime's sword goes dark and Jon see a light switch off. This ties well with Jaime willingness to redempt himself and his decision to not take arms against the Starks and the Tullys. Yes, I'm totally talking about Jaime the Kingmaker theory !

Plus, the scene is written with the same expression that the TOJ dream, "we all swore oaths", the "mist" used to describe the Kingsguard... I think everyone here is very familiar with the TOJ dream. Then, there is also : "Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" -> Jon's colors.

So, yep ! We have Jon wandering helplessly in Winterfell's crypt, struggling with his identity, calling for his father. And then, Rhaegar shows up in Jaime's dream and Lyanna in Theon's. And the three dreams share connections. :cool4:

Wow ! That was a long post ! But I couldn't resist ! I'm sure that this has already been discussed before but I don't remember a R+L=J thread with it. So , HAPPY R+L=J v100 !!!

This is cool. I have long believed that Jaime's dream took place under WF, and have also long believed that the Old Kings of Winter are going to play a role at the end of the series. (I also wondered if Jaime's dream suggested an ice dragon beneath WF, but that's another topic.) However, I never connected the "feast" part of each dream from different vantage points - new meat for the sandwich, and great catch.

One thing to note: the description of Lyanna's gown as "spattered with gore".....that particular description, with that wording, has been used elsewhere in AGOT and ACOK so far (I haven't finished my full reread yet of the rest): once to describe the silk walls of Drogo's tent during MMD's blood magic ceremony (after she kills Drogo's horse), and once to describe the Hound's white cloak during the Battle of the Blackwater (and maybe Ser Mandon/Ser Meryn too). (It may have also been used in the HotU vision of the Red Wedding; I don't have my ACOK copy with me today to check.)

Granted, this may just be GRRM being repetitive, but I find it really interesting that in other instances where this phrase has been used, it is describing blood on white/light fabiric and it is in conjunction with some type of slaughter. Just a little something I caught during current reread. :)

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