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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

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Along with the oft-posted ToJ dream, this is probably my favorite R+L=J related passage in the series. Ned recalls the great tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, while being held in the dungeons.

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

Interesting that it was Dayne who knighted Jaime, Whent who helped him to his feet after he said his KG vows, and Hightower who placed the white cloak on his shoulders.

You come up with the most beautiful things....

That's a really nice catch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Whent the one on his knees at the TOJ? And the first thing Ned remembers in his dream about Dayne is Dawn poking up over the knights shoulders. So Whent and knees in both situations; Dayne and his sword;

Again, nice catch!

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You come up with the most beautiful things....

That's a really nice catch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Whent the one on his knees at the TOJ? And the first thing Ned remembers in his dream about Dayne is Dawn poking up over the knights shoulders. So Whent and knees in both situations; Dayne and his sword;

Again, nice catch!

yup:

"Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone."

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You come up with the most beautiful things....

That's a really nice catch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Whent the one on his knees at the TOJ? And the first thing Ned remembers in his dream about Dayne is Dawn poking up over the knights shoulders. So Whent and knees in both situations; Dayne and his sword;

Again, nice catch!

I second this, but felt it nice to add two more lines (that OP @J. Stargaryen left out in his right, as they are no longer part of the passage, but I put them because they point at it and I want to pity Ned for that:

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

The gods did not deign to answer.

ugh!

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I second this, but felt it nice to add two more lines (that OP @J. Stargaryen left out in his right, as they are no longer part of the passage, but I put them because they point at it and I want to pity Ned for that:

ugh!

4 books later and Ned is still in my top 10 favorite characters. I definitely pity the man.

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I thought it was really interesting, and will be giving it a closer look when I get the chance. :cheers:

---

:cheers: 100 R+L=J threads! :cheers:

Here's to pale blue roses, a tower long fallen, Ned's promise, and the coming winter.

---

Along with the oft-posted ToJ dream, this is probably my favorite R+L=J related passage in the series. Ned recalls the great tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, while being held in the dungeons.

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

Interesting that it was Dayne who knighted Jaime, Whent who helped him to his feet after he said his KG vows, and Hightower who placed the white cloak on his shoulders.

More stuff for Jaime the Kingmaker theory ?! I like it !

Wow, 100 threads. You guys did it! You really did it! (I think I only stirred shit in the last 10 or so, so take no credit.) Party like it's thread (19)99!

This is cool. I have long believed that Jaime's dream took place under WF, and have also long believed that the Old Kings of Winter are going to play a role at the end of the series. (I also wondered if Jaime's dream suggested an ice dragon beneath WF, but that's another topic.) However, I never connected the "feast" part of each dream from different vantage points - new meat for the sandwich, and great catch.

One thing to note: the description of Lyanna's gown as "spattered with gore".....that particular description, with that wording, has been used elsewhere in AGOT and ACOK so far (I haven't finished my full reread yet of the rest): once to describe the silk walls of Drogo's tent during MMD's blood magic ceremony (after she kills Drogo's horse), and once to describe the Hound's white cloak during the Battle of the Blackwater (and maybe Ser Mandon/Ser Meryn too). (It may have also been used in the HotU vision of the Red Wedding; I don't have my ACOK copy with me today to check.)

Granted, this may just be GRRM being repetitive, but I find it really interesting that in other instances where this phrase has been used, it is describing blood on white/light fabiric and it is in conjunction with some type of slaughter. Just a little something I caught during current reread. :)

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one ! This makes me thing that I'm not getting completly crasy ;)

Nice catch on Lyanna's gown description !

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Wow, 100 threads. You guys did it! You really did it! (I think I only stirred shit in the last 10 or so, so take no credit.) Party like it's thread (19)99!

This is cool. I have long believed that Jaime's dream took place under WF, and have also long believed that the Old Kings of Winter are going to play a role at the end of the series. (I also wondered if Jaime's dream suggested an ice dragon beneath WF, but that's another topic.) However, I never connected the "feast" part of each dream from different vantage points - new meat for the sandwich, and great catch.

One thing to note: the description of Lyanna's gown as "spattered with gore".....that particular description, with that wording, has been used elsewhere in AGOT and ACOK so far (I haven't finished my full reread yet of the rest): once to describe the silk walls of Drogo's tent during MMD's blood magic ceremony (after she kills Drogo's horse), and once to describe the Hound's white cloak during the Battle of the Blackwater (and maybe Ser Mandon/Ser Meryn too). (It may have also been used in the HotU vision of the Red Wedding; I don't have my ACOK copy with me today to check.)

Granted, this may just be GRRM being repetitive, but I find it really interesting that in other instances where this phrase has been used, it is describing blood on white/light fabiric and it is in conjunction with some type of slaughter. Just a little something I caught during current reread. :)

The connection to Drogo's tent is potentially interesting for Schmendrick's R+L=LB theory, because of the connections between Lyanna and Dany. The former literally gave birth to a figurative dragon, while the latter figuratively gave birth to literal dragons.

Here is my explanation regarding Theon's description of Lyanna in ACoK:

Theon describes Lyanna's gown as spattered with "gore," which means bloodshed. Though the word usually indicates some type of violence, GRRM may simply be reinforcing the idea that birthing is a bloody and unpleasant business. Or, perhaps he's telling us that she was a sacrifice of some sort, like—maybe exactly like—Nissa Nissa.

Something we don't see in the other passages is that Lyanna is wearing a white gown, which immediately makes me think of a wedding dress. So, that is possibly another significant piece of information.

The crown of pale blue roses she is wearing seems to connect both of these events in a very familiar and satisfying way. If the gore represents giving birth, and the white gown means marriage, the crown of roses conveniently tells us who the husband and father of her child was. Rhaegar crowned her, married her, and impregnated her. R+L=J.

- Link

More stuff for Jaime the Kingmaker theory ?! I like it !

It could be. I'm not sure what to make of it at the moment, but I'd be surprised if it was just a coincidence.

You come up with the most beautiful things....

That's a really nice catch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Whent the one on his knees at the TOJ? And the first thing Ned remembers in his dream about Dayne is Dawn poking up over the knights shoulders. So Whent and knees in both situations; Dayne and his sword;

Again, nice catch!

GRRM comes up with them. Sometimes I notice them. ;)

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Happy 100th.

My first home as well. I think this forum is an example of the internet and social media done well.

It has been my pleasure to "meet" some truly amazing people from all over the world.

It has been my "therapy" through some very tough work situations, and gave me an anchor to not worry myself to an early grave.

Very much the same with me, only my first home was the DA wiki. I still return there, now and then, to meet the oldtimers.

4 books later and Ned is still in my top 10 favorite characters. I definitely pity the man.

Mine too! He might actually be my most favourite character of the whole series. Such a shame he had to be GRRMed...

I don't believe Jaime will be the KM. He has already made two Kings.

Perhaps he might finally get it right then. Third time breaks the spell, no?

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Mine too! He might actually be my most favourite character of the whole series. Such a shame he had to be GRRMed...

GRRMed...lol.

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Does there need to be one?

Probably not.

While I do think Jon will sit a throne by series end, I don't think it will be because someone makes him king. It'll be the collective opinion of Westeros that he should be King and Jon will take up the task, even though he kinda sorta doesn't really want to.

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I'm so late but finally reached V.100!!!!!!!!!

:hat:

Probably not.

While I do think Jon will sit a throne by series end, I don't think it will be because someone makes him king. It'll be the collective opinion of Westeros that he should be King and Jon will take up the task, even though he kinda sorta doesn't really want to.

Perhaps he will be known as the King AT the Wall. The King of Ice............
(And Fire)

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Probably not.

While I do think Jon will sit a throne by series end, I don't think it will be because someone makes him king. It'll be the collective opinion of Westeros that he should be King and Jon will take up the task, even though he kinda sorta doesn't really want to.

That's how I see it, too. He wouldn't want the throne, but he would take it because he is needed.

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Who do you think will be the KM?

At first, I thought it was Jaime too. But he's too much involved yet in the GoT itself to actually going to Jon, who is fighting the others. I admit there is so much evidence for Jaime to be, and he has a strong connection to Rhaegar, but that doesn't mean he will crown his son. Whatsoever, I think he will be one of the first people commenting that it's odd that Rhaegar ran away with a girl and then, her brother reappears with a newborn bastard. Jaime, and this I'm noticing in my Feast re-read, is becoming quite perceptive. Not only he realised the chance of Varys being involved in Tyrek's disappearance, but also, he's the only character making a connection between Joffrey's death and Renly's being odd. We know that Mel had no hand on it (except in the matter of predicting the deaths), but still, he's definitely closer to something than the rest of people.

I think it won't be one single people revealing Jon's parentage, but several of them connecting the dots, and it won't be simply "revealed" but we, as readers, will be told (or have the confirmation) through several sources.

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At first, I thought it was Jaime too. But he's too much involved yet in the GoT itself to actually going to Jon, who is fighting the others. I admit there is so much evidence for Jaime to be, and he has a strong connection to Rhaegar, but that doesn't mean he will crown his son. Whatsoever, I think he will be one of the first people commenting that it's odd that Rhaegar ran away with a girl and then, her brother reappears with a newborn bastard. Jaime, and this I'm noticing in my Feast re-read, is becoming quite perceptive. Not only he realised the chance of Varys being involved in Tyrek's disappearance, but also, he's the only character making a connection between Joffrey's death and Renly's being odd. We know that Mel had no hand on it (except in the matter of predicting the deaths), but still, he's definitely closer to something than the rest of people.

I think it won't be one single people revealing Jon's parentage, but several of them connecting the dots, and it won't be simply "revealed" but we, as readers, will be told (or have the confirmation) through several sources.

I'm not convinced it will happen, but I think it would be a great twist on the Jaime's storyline. He has to choose between his family and Rhaegar's son...what would he do? I would just like to see his reaction to it, at the very least.

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That's how I see it, too. He wouldn't want the throne, but he would take it because he is needed.

Yup. I sorta think Jon's final POV in ADOS will be Jon staring at his new throne, remembering all those he's loved and lost before slowly and sadly climbing to the throne and sitting down.

At first, I thought it was Jaime too. But he's too much involved yet in the GoT itself to actually going to Jon, who is fighting the others. I admit there is so much evidence for Jaime to be, and he has a strong connection to Rhaegar, but that doesn't mean he will crown his son. Whatsoever, I think he will be one of the first people commenting that it's odd that Rhaegar ran away with a girl and then, her brother reappears with a newborn bastard. Jaime, and this I'm noticing in my Feast re-read, is becoming quite perceptive. Not only he realised the chance of Varys being involved in Tyrek's disappearance, but also, he's the only character making a connection between Joffrey's death and Renly's being odd. We know that Mel had no hand on it (except in the matter of predicting the deaths), but still, he's definitely closer to something than the rest of people.

I think it won't be one single people revealing Jon's parentage, but several of them connecting the dots, and it won't be simply "revealed" but we, as readers, will be told (or have the confirmation) through several sources.

That's what I think as well. Bran through the trees, Sam might stumble on something in Oldtown (or from old Lord Hightower), and eventually Howland Reed will show up.

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At first, I thought it was Jaime too. But he's too much involved yet in the GoT itself to actually going to Jon, who is fighting the others. I admit there is so much evidence for Jaime to be, and he has a strong connection to Rhaegar, but that doesn't mean he will crown his son. Whatsoever, I think he will be one of the first people commenting that it's odd that Rhaegar ran away with a girl and then, her brother reappears with a newborn bastard. Jaime, and this I'm noticing in my Feast re-read, is becoming quite perceptive. Not only he realised the chance of Varys being involved in Tyrek's disappearance, but also, he's the only character making a connection between Joffrey's death and Renly's being odd. We know that Mel had no hand on it (except in the matter of predicting the deaths), but still, he's definitely closer to something than the rest of people.

I think it won't be one single people revealing Jon's parentage, but several of them connecting the dots, and it won't be simply "revealed" but we, as readers, will be told (or have the confirmation) through several sources.

:agree:

Even if I really think that Jaime is going to be involved in Jon's storyline as well. Didn't GRRM said recently that he was at a point in the story when all characters are going to converge towards each others ?

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:agree:

Even if I really think that Jaime is going to be involved in Jon's storyline as well. Didn't GRRM said recently that he was at a point in the story when all characters are going to converge towards each others ?

One would certainly hope they begin to converge more. I'm not sure how Jaime would get to the Wall since he's with Brienne, but maybe the three of them meet at WF?

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One would certainly hope they begin to converge more. I'm not sure how Jaime would get to the Wall since he's with Brienne, but maybe the three of them meet at WF?

With LS who seeks vengeance on her late Lord Husbands Bastard???? :O

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