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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

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Especially if he found out that it was not rape, but consensual sex to her Prince Husband. Lyanna did not want Robert

There's no difference between the two in this context. Women have no sexual agency. Rhaegar took her from Robert. Her consent doesn't enter into it.

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He still has the lovely vision of an unspoilt Lyanna in his mind - the image he has chosen to preserve. The real thing would have been very different.

Had Ly lived after being rescued, she would have probably been sent to the Silent Sisters. If she was lucky she would have been married off to some second son of some lesser northern house, or lived out her life as the maid of WF.

I never said he was realistic about his love for her, but that's also why I don't think he would have simply said "oh, well- broken goods" and moved on. He's NOT realistic about it or his love for her. Which is why I think he would have married her to "save her".

Of course, we could go back and forth on this all day, but we'll never know for certain.

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There's no difference between the two in this context. Women have no sexual agency. Rhaegar took her from Robert. Her consent doesn't enter into it.

Robert thinks she was raped. It was not rape. She wanted it. Whereas rape would imply she did not want it. In this context consent is the only thing thatapplies

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I never said he was realistic about his love for her, but that's also why I don't think he would have simply said "oh, well- broken goods" and moved on. He's NOT realistic about it or his love for her. Which is why I think he would have married her to "save her".

Of course, we could go back and forth on this all day, but we'll never know for certain.

Really, even if Robert had wanted it (which I doubt), society wouldn't have allowed it. Someone would have stepped in and stopped it - Jon Arryn, the High Septon, Ned, who knows. It's very likely that Robert would have married Cersei regardless.

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Robert thinks she was raped. It was not rape. She wanted it. Whereas rape would imply she did not want it. In this context consent is the only thing thatapplies

Well, of course it matters to us. We're decent human beings. But in the context of Westeros and her marriage prospects vis a vis Robert it doesn't matter if she was raped or if she had consensual sex, she still equally stained.

Really, even if Robert had wanted it (which I doubt), society wouldn't have allowed it. Someone would have stepped in and stopped it - Jon Arryn, the High Septon, Ned, who knows. It's very likely that Robert would have married Cersei regardless.

:agree:

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There's no difference between the two in this context. Women have no sexual agency. Rhaegar took her from Robert. Her consent doesn't enter into it.

In Robert's mind I think it would make a big difference. However "damaged goods" Robert might view Lyanna if he thinks it is rape--knowing that Lyanna wanted Rhaegar--and married him (perhaps--but either way) would infuriate Robert. The first situation is one of pity, and probably ultimately disgust and dismissal of her. The second situation is rage against her.

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In Robert's mind I think it would make a big difference. However "damaged goods" Robert might view Lyanna if he thinks it is rape--knowing that Lyanna wanted Rhaegar--and married him (perhaps--but either way) would infuriate Robert. The first situation is one of pity, and probably ultimately disgust and dismissal of her. The second situation is rage against her.

Which is why he never allowed himself to explore the truth of it all. He has to mentally kill Rhaegar every night to reinforce that it had to be the first situation. Also kind of explains his irrational hatred for "dragonspawn" (yay! that brings us back to this thread).

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Really, even if Robert had wanted it (which I doubt), society wouldn't have allowed it. Someone would have stepped in and stopped it - Jon Arryn, the High Septon, Ned, who knows. It's very likely that Robert would have married Cersei regardless.

Tywin would have bent over backwards to make sure Robert didn't marry Lyanna.

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Which is why he never allowed himself to explore the truth of it all. He has to mentally kill Rhaegar every night to reinforce that it had to be the first situation. Also kind of explains his irrational hatred for "dragonspawn" (yay! that brings us back to this thread).

I have wondered from time to time if, in moments of non drunken lucidity, if Robert ever did sit and think about the events of it all. He's not exactly the most keen observer (like...his "children"). But Robert knew the kind of man Rhaegar was--they seem to like each other a bit--so did he ever stop and ponder it. Or was he content living his fantasy?

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Well, of course it matters to us. We're decent human beings. But in the context of Westeros and her marriage prospects vis a vis Robert it doesn't matter if she was raped or if she had consensual sex, she still equally stained.

Yes but to Robert it would hurt much deeper to know that she wanted Rhaegar this whole time and was enjoying every minute of their time together.

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I have wondered from time to time if, in moments of non drunken lucidity, if Robert ever did sit and think about the events of it all. He's not exactly the most keen observer (like...his "children"). But Robert knew the kind of man Rhaegar was--they seem to like each other a bit--so did he ever stop and ponder it. Or was he content living his fantasy?

You underestimate the power of self delusion. His victimization by Rhaegar is central to his self concept. Even if Lyanna sat him down and told him all this with diagrams involving cartoon animals, he still would believe it.

And not because he's dumb either.

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You underestimate the power of self delusion. His victimization by Rhaegar is central to his self concept. Even if Lyanna sat him down and told him all this with diagrams involving cartoon animals, he still would believe it.

And not because he's dumb either.

Though cartoon animals might be a good call for him.

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You underestimate the power of self delusion. His victimization by Rhaegar is central to his self concept. Even if Lyanna sat him down and told him all this with diagrams involving cartoon animals, he still would believe it.

And not because he's dumb either.

I do tend to agree. I think Robert was more than happy to let the events he "knew" be the factual events.

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You underestimate the power of self delusion. His victimization by Rhaegar is central to his self concept. Even if Lyanna sat him down and told him all this with diagrams involving cartoon animals, he still would believe it.

:lol:

I lost the posts I was quoting, but I'll clarify myself a bit.

I didn't intend to say that Robert and Rhaegar would parley in good terms. That never was going to happen. But, let's remember how Oberyn faced the Mountain: "you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children". For Robert, Rhaegar was doing the same (except the killing of children. He was actually making some, heh). I can imagine Robert actually shouting that at Rhaegar, that he was a rapist, that he kidnapped Lyanna and that he would die for it. Did Rhaegar keep it silent and let him speak? Or he actually reacted at the notion of him hurting the woman he loved and told Robert the true in the middle of the battle (battle that at first, he wasn't actually losing).

Whatever happened there, what I bring to consideration were Robert's intentions. Either he knew or he didn't what Ned was trying to do or where he went after the Battle/Siege/War, he doesn't actively try to look for Lyanna on his own, nor send men to her. As Prettypig said, for him, Lyanna is pretty much dead for him, even though she's alive. What if, just after the Trident, after Rhaegar actually said "I'm keeping her safe" Robert actually send men for her? Maybe, she could have been saved. But not, in fact, inderectly, Robert's actions could have been what caused her to die: he kills Rhaegar, she is told about it and she's kept hidden because they're in danger, she probably had little access to a good maester, she gets sick and died.

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

/rant over. but sometimes, I hate Ned too.

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:lol:

I lost the posts I was quoting, but I'll clarify myself a bit.

I didn't intend to say that Robert and Rhaegar would parley in good terms. That never was going to happen. But, let's remember how Oberyn faced the Mountain: "you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children". For Robert, Rhaegar was doing the same (except the killing of children. He was actually making some, heh). I can imagine Robert actually shouting that at Rhaegar, that he was a rapist, that he kidnapped Lyanna and that he would die for it. Did Rhaegar keep it silent and let him speak? Or he actually reacted at the notion of him hurting the woman he loved and told Robert the true in the middle of the battle (battle that at first, he wasn't actually losing).

Whatever happened there, what I bring to consideration were Robert's intentions. Either he knew or he didn't what Ned was trying to do or where he went after the Battle/Siege/War, he doesn't actively try to look for Lyanna on his own, nor send men to her. As Prettypig said, for him, Lyanna is pretty much dead for him, even though she's alive. What if, just after the Trident, after Rhaegar actually said "I'm keeping her safe" Robert actually send men for her? Maybe, she could have been saved. But not, in fact, inderectly, Robert's actions could have been what caused her to die: he kills Rhaegar, she is told about it and she's kept hidden because they're in danger, she probably had little access to a good maester, she gets sick and died.

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

/rant over. but sometimes, I hate Ned too.

My name is Robert Baratheon

You raped my betrothed

Prepare to Die

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I don't think he wanted Robert for Lyanna. Being Lord of Winterfell now I suppose that was his decision to undo that promise made before him given how Robert and he had fallen out.

I agree. I don't believe Ned wanted Lyanna to be with Robert either. Robert was, among other things, a narcissist. As was mentioned above, Robert may not have cared what Lyanna wanted but I think it would have mattered to Ned and I think Ned knew that Lyanna had made her choice in rejecting Robert and going willingly with Rhaegar. However, Ned also being close friends with Robert may have always made him not want to point out what he knew his narcissistic friend could not accept. I also think Ned knew that he needed secrecy when going to find Lyanna to protect her (and maybe even a baby he'd somehow learned of ;) ).

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:lol:

I lost the posts I was quoting, but I'll clarify myself a bit.

I didn't intend to say that Robert and Rhaegar would parley in good terms. That never was going to happen. But, let's remember how Oberyn faced the Mountain: "you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children". For Robert, Rhaegar was doing the same (except the killing of children. He was actually making some, heh). I can imagine Robert actually shouting that at Rhaegar, that he was a rapist, that he kidnapped Lyanna and that he would die for it. Did Rhaegar keep it silent and let him speak? Or he actually reacted at the notion of him hurting the woman he loved and told Robert the true in the middle of the battle (battle that at first, he wasn't actually losing).

If the scenario you are describing did happen, I think Rhaegar would have kept silent. Rhaeger knows that he needs to end this rebellion and the only way to do that is to take down Robert and break his forces. At that moment, Rhaegar is focused more, IMO, on ending the Rebellion because he has other things to take care of. So he'll lent Robert rant and rave; it might hurt Rhaegar to hear such things, but in his mind, he's going to win this battle and that means killing Robert

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:lol:

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

/rant over. but sometimes, I hate Ned too.

Completely agree, and it's hard to answer for Ned's motivations without Nedbert as an explanation. Because it's kind of shitty. The only thing I can think is because Ned and Robert were apart for so long following the war, so he didn't see the toll it had on Robert.

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I didn't intend to say that Robert and Rhaegar would parley in good terms. That never was going to happen. But, let's remember how Oberyn faced the Mountain: "you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children". For Robert, Rhaegar was doing the same (except the killing of children. He was actually making some, heh). I can imagine Robert actually shouting that at Rhaegar, that he was a rapist, that he kidnapped Lyanna and that he would die for it. Did Rhaegar keep it silent and let him speak? Or he actually reacted at the notion of him hurting the woman he loved and told Robert the true in the middle of the battle (battle that at first, he wasn't actually losing).

I've always pictured Robert yelling at Rhaegar and calling him a monster and a rapist and Rhaegar calling him an idiot and/or taunting him by saying Lyanna never lover him. But that's fan fiction, who the hell knows.

Another thing is Ned's behaviour towards Robert, something that with rereads I've started to hate. I hate that he protects Robert's psyche too much. Why? He's a grown man, and what has been hurt there is his own pride. One of the reasons he can't move on is because he still is in love of Lyanna. And even when Ned manages to tell him that she's not what he thought, he keeps quiet so many things. He lets Robert to believe, for years, that he killed Rhaegar because he was saving and avenging Lyanna. The truth is that he didn't. He killed the father of Lyanna's child and the man she probably really loved. Nedbert jokes aside, I dont' see why Ned is so unable to see that Robert's issues are mostly due to have lost what he believed it was his, when it never was. Maybe, if he had found out Lyanna never loved him, he could have been a better father and husband. And if we're worrying about Jon's safety, he could have said "yes, he kept her hidden but he never touch her because he loved her" or whatever.

I agree 200%. Ned doesn't like confrontation.

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