Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v100

Recommended Posts

100? Already? Well you all have been chatty haven't you?

You know I think a little trip down memory lane is in order here. There have been many topics on R+L=J, here are a few of the greats.

The great sugar free gummy bear revenge debate of 2013. Aka how to give another poster diarrhea.

Ruby Chevrolet "Jon burnt his hand so he can't be a Targaryen, because Targaryens are fire proof" This went on for a months.

Sanka the little thread that wouldn't quit. Single greatest R+L=J thread of all time.

Tower of Joy or it's a boy.

Wheres Wylla?

Math threads. It's funny these often get annoying, but the irony of the math threads is that the title of the thread is in fact a mathematical formula.

Married or not married?

The Kingsguard.

Timelines.

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the morning or Morning wood?

Promise me the broken promise.

Blue roses, that are not really that blue.

Yiggy, kissed by fire. Well kissed by fire in more ways than one, in more places than one for that matter

There was a month long debate on the legality of weirwood weddings.

Good times, good times.

Now I was told I promised John Stamos, I seem to recall in fact that my feelings on Stamos are not all that kind. However if you want a little John Stamos, you shall have a little John Stamos and remember ladies this could be you. It's not you, but in an alternate reality like a parallel universe of something it could be you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocj_sGKFOIA

That's awesome.

On mmemory lane, I would also add Jon Icefires classic response to Ruby:

"Dammit Ruby, are we going to do this again!?"

I think this thread did a lot to prepare him for marriage. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see Ned bringing it up when he gives Robert the news of her death (as he's holding Jon). So his telling Robert that he didn't know her that well at the tourney may have been the first chance he had to even skirt the issue. And by that point it was clear that Robert was pretty incapable of change.

Actually, I think that the full realization of what Robert had become hit only after seeing Barra and her mother, and that the thought of Rhaegar not frequenting brothels is a masked acknowledgement that Lyanna was right, after all, and made the right choice of partner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sj4iy:



I know that quote. I'm just unconvinced it refers to R+L=J, mainly because R+L=J can be figured out from the AGoT alone - while GRRM says people had that particular mystery figured out by the second (not first!) book. So what might it refer to then? My guess would be the fAegon theory, based on Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon back in ACoK.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I think that the full realization of what Robert had become hit only after seeing Barra and her mother, and that the thought of Rhaegar not frequenting brothels is a masked acknowledgement that Lyanna was right, after all, and made the right choice of partner.

I like that thought actually...it adds a nicer touch to Ned's line, because part of him thinking about it was selfless and on Lyanna's behalf (in an odd sort of way).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sj4iy:

I know that quote. I'm just unconvinced it refers to R+L=J, mainly because R+L=J can be figured out from the AGoT alone - while GRRM says people had that particular mystery figured out by the second (not first!) book. So what might it refer to then? My guess would be the fAegon theory, based on Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon back in ACoK.

I disagree. I took that reference to be the timing of when he saw the posts on his website (Dragonstone). It was probably the rush of participants that joined that board after the second book came out that led to so many people being on the board--but he did not say that people needed the second book to figure it out--only that he saw the postings after only two books had been published. I am firmly convinced he meant RLJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awesome.

On mmemory lane, I would also add Jon Icefires classic response to Ruby:

"Dammit Ruby, are we going to do this again!?"

I think this thread did a lot to prepare him for marriage. :)

The correct answer is always "yes, yes we are". Because that's how marriages work XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sj4iy:

I know that quote. I'm just unconvinced it refers to R+L=J, mainly because R+L=J can be figured out from the AGoT alone - while GRRM says people had that particular mystery figured out by the second (not first!) book. So what might it refer to then? My guess would be the fAegon theory, based on Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon back in ACoK.

He's talking about when he first ventured on a fan forum about his books, not when people figured it out. There were quite a few that figured out R+L=J from the very first book...but most people don't go talk about it on fan forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100? Already? Well you all have been chatty haven't you?

You know I think a little trip down memory lane is in order here. There have been many topics on R+L=J, here are a few of the greats.

The great sugar free gummy bear revenge debate of 2013. Aka how to give another poster diarrhea.

Ruby Chevrolet "Jon burnt his hand so he can't be a Targaryen, because Targaryens are fire proof" This went on for a months.

Sanka the little thread that wouldn't quit. Single greatest R+L=J thread of all time.

Tower of Joy or it's a boy.

Wheres Wylla?

Math threads. It's funny these often get annoying, but the irony of the math threads is that the title of the thread is in fact a mathematical formula.

Married or not married?

The Kingsguard.

Timelines.

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the morning or Morning wood?

Promise me the broken promise.

Blue roses, that are not really that blue.

Yiggy, kissed by fire. Well kissed by fire in more ways than one, in more places than one for that matter

There was a month long debate on the legality of weirwood weddings.

Good times, good times.

Now I was told I promised John Stamos, I seem to recall in fact that my feelings on Stamos are not all that kind. However if you want a little John Stamos, you shall have a little John Stamos and remember ladies this could be you. It's not you, but in an alternate reality like a parallel universe of something it could be you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocj_sGKFOIA

Ser Creighton has returned!!! And the Realm is right again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's talking about when he first ventured on a fan forum about his books, not when people figured it out. He's mentioned this 'mystery' quite a lot in interviews lately and how people have figured it out. The only really 'big' mystery that has survived all through his books that people have speculated on from the very beginning is "Who is Jon Snow's mother?"

The idea that Aegon survived (or that Varys is supporting an impostor) has survived since the first or second book too, and may well be the second-largest mystery in the books - and GRRM already knew people could figure out R+L=J from book 1 by talking to his editor. I think a R+L=J reveal in early ADoS just makes the most sense narratively - I'm absolutely ready to eat crow (heh!) on that issue though ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only really 'big' mystery that has survived all through his books that people have speculated on from the very beginning is "Who is Jon Snow's mother?"

Except that the big mystery gets decidedly less mysterious with each book, what with Dany talking about R&L, Barry talking about R&L, etc. (Did book Oberyn say something about it too, or was that show Oberyn? I get confused.) By ADWD, it seems like it's getting more obvious, like in "it is known" territory, that R&L were a thing.....or least the general perception is that they were a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awesome.

On mmemory lane, I would also add Jon Icefires classic response to Ruby:

"Dammit Ruby, are we going to do this again!?"

I think this thread did a lot to prepare him for marriage. :)

Yes, yes it did, oh those two crazy kids. Now I can't speak on how close he and Ruby got, but apparently marriage. God he loved those debates so much.

The correct answer is always "yes, yes we are". Because that's how marriages work XD

Actually the correct answer would be "I give up and you win." Oh boy marriage, so much fun.

@sj4iy:

I know that quote. I'm just unconvinced it refers to R+L=J, mainly because R+L=J can be figured out from the AGoT alone - while GRRM says people had that particular mystery figured out by the second (not first!) book. So what might it refer to then? My guess would be the fAegon theory, based on Dany's vision of the mummer's dragon back in ACoK.

Impossible, the mummers dragon did not happen till Dance. The vision had no context in the second book. The blue rose on the other hand appeared in book 2. Along with the story of Bael the Bard which also appears in Kings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea that Aegon survived (or that Varys is supporting an impostor) has survived since the first or second book too, and may well be the second-largest mystery in the books - and GRRM already knew people could figure out R+L=J from book 1 by talking to his editor. I think a R+L=J reveal in early ADoS just makes the most sense narratively - I'm absolutely ready to eat crow (heh!) on that issue though ;)

Except that the big mystery gets decidedly less mysterious with each book, what with Dany talking about R&L, Barry talking about R&L, etc. (Did book Oberyn say something about it too, or was that show Oberyn? I get confused.) By ADWD, it seems like it's getting more obvious, like in "it is known" territory, that R&L were a thing.....or least the general perception is that they were a thing.

fAegon doesn't sound right at all, though. The vision itself didn't happen until the second book. Also, Martin has talked quite a lot about people figuring something out that he set up from the very first book and that he refuses to change it now. This is the only interview, though, where I've seen him actually confirm when he would reveal it. Also, considering Jon's predicament in the story, the next book seems like the perfect time for all of this to be revealed in one way or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fAegon doesn't sound right at all, though. The vision itself didn't happen until the second book. Also, Martin has talked quite a lot about people figuring something out that he set up from the very first book and that he refuses to change it now. This is the only interview, though, where I've seen him actually confirm when he would reveal it. Also, considering Jon's predicament in the story, the next book seems like the perfect time for all of this to be revealed in one way or another.

I believe he says somewhere that Jon will learn of his parentage before the story is over. I have no idea which interview it is, but that would lead me to believe that Jon's story is not over. Hopefully it is not something he learns on his deathbed,,,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe he says somewhere that Jon will learn of his parentage before the story is over. I have no idea which interview it is, but that would lead me to believe that Jon's story is not over. Hopefully it is not something he learns on his deathbed,,,

He said that Jon would find out who his mother was. So yes, there is definitely unfinished business for Jon Snow :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100? Already? Well you all have been chatty haven't you?

You know I think a little trip down memory lane is in order here. There have been many topics on R+L=J, here are a few of the greats.

The great sugar free gummy bear revenge debate of 2013. Aka how to give another poster diarrhea.

Ruby Chevrolet "Jon burnt his hand so he can't be a Targaryen, because Targaryens are fire proof" This went on for a months.

Sanka the little thread that wouldn't quit. Single greatest R+L=J thread of all time.

Tower of Joy or it's a boy.

Wheres Wylla?

Math threads. It's funny these often get annoying, but the irony of the math threads is that the title of the thread is in fact a mathematical formula.

Married or not married?

The Kingsguard.

Timelines.

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the morning or Morning wood?

Promise me the broken promise.

Blue roses, that are not really that blue.

Yiggy, kissed by fire. Well kissed by fire in more ways than one, in more places than one for that matter

There was a month long debate on the legality of weirwood weddings.

Good times, good times.

Now I was told I promised John Stamos, I seem to recall in fact that my feelings on Stamos are not all that kind. However if you want a little John Stamos, you shall have a little John Stamos and remember ladies this could be you. It's not you, but in an alternate reality like a parallel universe of something it could be you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocj_sGKFOIA

YOU'RE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you brought presents!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW IT'S A PARTY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He said that Jon would find out who his mother was. So yes, there is definitely unfinished business for Jon Snow :)

When I read this, I immediately thought of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

I see a man standing atop the Wall shouting " Your Mother.....Was a hamster!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, yes it did, oh those two crazy kids. Now I can't speak on how close he and Ruby got, but apparently marriage. God he loved those debates so much.

Actually the correct answer would be "I give up and you win." Oh boy marriage, so much fun.

Impossible, the mummers dragon did not happen till Dance. The vision had no context in the second book. The blue rose on the other hand appeared in book 2. Along with the story of Bael the Bard which also appears in Kings.

Varys omitted Aegon from the list of people killed during the Sack back in AGoT and again in ACoK. Combined with the mummer's dragon vision (and the full use of the ambiguity of that vision) absolutely made the theory that Varys would come up with a fake dragon and call him Aegon feasible way back in ACoK. And indeed I've been told before that the (f)Aegon discussion started as a theory way back after ACoK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Post-rebellion. More specifically post-seeing Roberts response to the Targaryen babes and allowing Jamie to live. He may have even thought so before hand, knowing who Robert truly was and even hearing from Lyanna what she thought about him, but Ned may have decided in his mind pre-rebellion it didn't matter what he thought of the match. He was a second son of Winterfell

I can certainly see this being a more likely scenario post-Reb. Ned is stunned, appalled by Robert's reaction, he's at the point of rejecting him as a friend at that point. This stands in contrast to Ned's thoughts and statements he made to Lyanna at Winterfell. At that time, Ned's friendship with Robert was at its height -- irrc , he and Robert are still wards of Jon Arryn -- Ned's pumping up Robert to Lyanna, who has expressed grave concerns about the prospect of marriage with Bob. It's hard to tell though by that brief exchange whether Ned is trying to assuage Lyanna or his own doubts about Robert devotion -- probably both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varys omitted Aegon from the list of people killed during the Sack back in AGoT and again in ACoK. Combined with the mummer's dragon vision (and the full use of the ambiguity of that vision) absolutely made the theory that Varys would come up with a fake dragon and call him Aegon feasible way back in ACoK. And indeed I've been told before that the (f)Aegon discussion started as a theory way back after ACoK.

But here's the thing: Martin could still choose to make Aegon real at this point. He could still choose to make him fake. He could just as easily pick one or the other and it wouldn't destroy any of the clues laid down in the past books. The "mummer" in mummer's dragon could simply mean Varys, and not that the dragon is fake. And in ACoK, he could have done anything at all with Aegon's character that he wanted to. He wasn't 'stuck' with what he had already written, because he had barely written anything at all.

This does not hold true for R+L=J, though. if Martin tried to pull a switch on us after the first book, it wouldn't work because he put too many clues in the first book to change it at any point afterwards and have it make sense. That's what he is telling us when he talks about it...that he knows that people figured it out very quickly, and that even though he was tempted to change it, he didn't want to because then his clues would not make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varys omitted Aegon from the list of people killed during the Sack back in AGoT and again in ACoK. Combined with the mummer's dragon vision (and the full use of the ambiguity of that vision) absolutely made the theory that Varys would come up with a fake dragon and call him Aegon feasible way back in ACoK. And indeed I've been told before that the (f)Aegon discussion started as a theory way back after ACoK.

Are you referring to his discussion with Tyrion when Tyrion was trying to flush out Cersei's mole?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×