Looking in the MUSH for some World Book content

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

I wish I knew which parts of this MUSH genealogy were canon (if any.) It would be brilliant for filling out the family tree I'm working on.

If you log onto the MUSH and enter the following, it will bring up all the characters that are considered canonical:

+cdb/search type/feature

This search string brings up this list:

Mariah Nymeros Martell (1778), Maron Nymeros Martell (1777), Kermit Tully (52), Gawen Swann (59), Ellyn Blackwood (64), Oscar Tully (93), Brandon Stark (218), Cregan Stark (221), Arra Stark (222), Rickon Stark (223), Lynara Stark (224), Jonnel Stark (225), Sansa Stark (226), Senara Stark (227), Alysanne Stark (228), Edric Stark (232), Clement Celtigar (233), Barthogan Stark (236), Samwell Blackwood (260), Benjicot Blackwood (305), Rickon Stark (312), Joseth Smallwood (598), Lyonel Tyrell (628), Leo Tyrell (632), Qarl Corbray (695), Leowyn Corbray (753), Robyn Ryswell (906), Jeyne Stark (926), Clarent Crakehall (1060), Tyland Lannister (1081), Jason Lannister (1086), Johanna Lannister (1087), Torrhen Manderly (1322), Desmond Manderly (1323), Medrick Manderly (1324), Olyvar Oakheart (1377), Caston Vaith (1431), Caswald Vaith (1433), Alan Beesbury (1449), Roland Darry (1546), Derrick Darry (1558), Lyonel Hightower (1599), Samantha Hightower (1606), Martyn Hightower (1608), Stafford Hightower (1617), Daeron I Targaryen (1619), Baelor Targaryen (1769), Coryanne Nymeros Martell (1787), Melissa Blackwood (1862), Bethany Caswell (1944), Daena Targaryen (1945), Elaena Targaryen (1975), Rhaena Targaryen (1974), Viserys Targaryen (1976), Aegon Targaryen (1977), Aemon Targaryen (1978), Naerys Targaryen (1979), Alyn Velaryon (1980), Daeron Targaryen (1981), Elmo Tully (2008), Megette (2031), Tyshara Peckledon (2487), Manfryd Mooton (2465), Walys Mooton (2464), Qyle Nymeros Martell (2461), Aliandra Nymeros Martell (2460), Gyles Yronwood (2459), Lorent Marbrand (2458), Jorah Mallister (2457), Rosamund Vypren (2454), Mathar Rosby (2438), Robin Massey (2437), Gormon Massey (2436), Steffon Connington (2435), Wyland Wyl (2434), Thaddeus Rowan (2433), Walter Brownhill (2428), Elenda Baratheon (2427), Olyver Baratheon (2426), Floris Rowan (2425), Maris Baratheon (2424), Cassandra Brownhill (2423), Borros Baratheon (2422), Corwyn Corbray (2419), Joffrey Arryn (2412), and Barba Bracken (2530)

The number in the brackets is their database number, so you can ignore that.

Hope that helps you :)

[El-Daddy]

That's actually brilliant, thank you. I need to ask though, how do you know that they are the ones which are specifically canon? Another matter is that even if the character is real, their relationship to existing characters may not be. For instance, Black Aly Blackwood is mentioned as being Benjicot's sister in TWOIAF, but his cousin on the House pages of MUSH info.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Any character that is a Feature character is not played because they are characters that appear either in one of the books or in the notes admin have from GRRM. The example of Lord Leowyn on the AMA being one such instance where I managed to squeeze a little info out of their notes from something that was cut from the books :P

Only in very rare circumstances do Feature characters appear in roleplay on the MUSH because they are canon, and admin don't want anything they are involved in to against established (or yet-to-be established) canon.

As for the Black Aly observation... if in doubt, go with the information provided in TWOIAF. I know that when they came to update the MUSH, a few of the canonical characters had to be squeezed into already existing trees (for the sake of certain Player Characters not being written out of the game) and I think this might have been one such instance.

Hopefully Ran may swoop down into this thread and give you a more definitive answer on that front.

[Hardstone]

I asked about Aly in the Inconsistencies thread after Ran and Linda mentioned he4 in the APOIAF podcast; Ran pretty much confirmed TWOI&F being correct there.

Thanks for the list Dermett! :-D

It's a shame that Stormbreaker isn't on that list as a Stormbreaker was mentioned in TWOI&F. Hopefully he'll be added for MUSH 2.5/3.0!

[El-Daddy]

Any character that is a Feature character is not played because they are characters that appear either in one of the books or in the notes admin have from GRRM. The example of Lord Leowyn on the AMA being one such instance where I managed to squeeze a little info out of their notes from something that was cut from the books :P

Only in very rare circumstances do Feature characters appear in roleplay on the MUSH because they are canon, and admin don't want anything they are involved in to against established (or yet-to-be established) canon.

As for the Black Aly observation... if in doubt, go with the information provided in TWOIAF. I know that when they came to update the MUSH, a few of the canonical characters had to be squeezed into already existing trees (for the sake of certain Player Characters not being written out of the game) and I think this might have been one such instance.

Hopefully Ran may swoop down into this thread and give you a more definitive answer on that front.

I asked about Aly in the Inconsistencies thread after Ran and Linda mentioned he4 in the APOIAF podcast; Ran pretty much confirmed TWOI&F being correct there.

Thanks for the list Dermett! :-D

It's a shame that Stormbreaker isn't on that list as a Stormbreaker was mentioned in TWOI&F. Hopefully he'll be added for MUSH 2.5/3.0!

Thanks both. Not trying to hijack this thread - but do you think that the above list of characters could be safely added to my tree without any danger of inaccuracy? As in, with regards the character relationships (brother/cousin/uncle, sister/cousin/aunt), as opposed their names.

[Hardstone]

No worries. That's exactly why this thread exists so we can reconcile the potential canon information from the MUSH with our own side projects. :-)

[The hairy bear]

do you think that the above list of characters could be safely added to my tree without any danger of inaccuracy? As in, with regards the character relationships (brother/cousin/uncle, sister/cousin/aunt), as opposed their names.

If you refer to their children, spouses and so on, surely not. All the names not included in the list are made up.

If you refer to the relationship among themselves... that's a great question I'm wondering about too. For instance, we alredady knew Lord Jason and Lady Johanna were canon, but... are we sure that they were married, or that's Ran's speculation?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

It's a shame that Stormbreaker isn't on that list as a Stormbreaker was mentioned in TWOI&F. Hopefully he'll be added for MUSH 2.5/3.0!

Hah, Sarmion is in the book? I can't say I've read it thoroughly yet. That's pretty cool.

I guess he's canon now? He's not (yet) on the MUSH as a Feature character since he's been played by an actual person since... as long as the MUSH has been live, I think.

Thanks both. Not trying to hijack this thread - but do you think that the above list of characters could be safely added to my tree without any danger of inaccuracy? As in, with regards the character relationships (brother/cousin/uncle, sister/cousin/aunt), as opposed their names.

Oo, I wouldn't want to venture a guess on that. Like I say, some of the relations established on the MUSH might not truly reflect the canon, even if it involves Feature characters.

Perhaps it'll be safer for your own project (which is very cool, by the way) to just include characters mentioned by name in the books for the time being. Unless Ran can further enlighten you at some point in the future. And if there are is any conflicting information, always opt for that established in the books.

[Hardstone]

Hah, Sarmion is in the book? I can't say I've read it thoroughly yet. That's pretty cool.

I guess he's canon now? He's not (yet) on the MUSH as a Feature character since he's been played by an actual person since... as long as the MUSH has been live, I think.

There is a sidebar in the Baratheon section that refers to various great warriors from the house which includes the Laughing Storm and refers to someone with a Stormbreaker alias.

That is the only mention of it so I'm not sure if it is meant to be Sarmion or not. I did ask in another thread but I didn't get a confirmation.

Sarmion does sound like a complete legend though so I hope it turns out to be him. (Y)

[El-Daddy]

Oo, I wouldn't want to venture a guess on that. Like I say, some of the relations established on the MUSH might not truly reflect the canon, even if it involves Feature characters.

Perhaps it'll be safer for your own project (which is very cool, by the way) to just include characters mentioned by name in the books for the time being. Unless Ran can further enlighten you at some point in the future. And if there are is any conflicting information, always opt for that established in the books.

I think I will add them in - but also make it clear in the notes if a character is taken from the MUSH, and a link to the above list of canon characters.

[Ran]

If a feature character, they come from George... though there's a caveat. Is the Stormbreaker the same as our Sarmion, or perhaps some predecessor who bore the same name... ? Only the Shadow knows.

But as to relations, relations -- especially marriages, children (who aren't marked feature), and so on -- are speculative.

Aly is Ben's aunt, BTW. Sister is an error in the book, we'll get it corrected.

Re: the caveat, in some cases George provided us information that, say, Lord Celtigar did such and such during this past event, and we realize that our current Lord Celtigar must have been that lord in question... but George did not provide a name. So our Clement Celtigar is the son of a Lord Celtigar who figures in the Dance... and is mentioned, in the Dance material, as his father's heir. But we don't get his actual name. So basically, sometimes feature is "a character mentioned in passing, without a proper name, whom we had to invent a name for."

If the character does not appear in TWoIaF, I'd strongly urge not looking to the MUSH trees for canonical information.

[El-Daddy]

If a feature character, they come from George... though there's a caveat. Is the Stormbreaker the same as our Sarmion, or perhaps some predecessor who bore the same name... ? Only the Shadow knows.

But as to relations, relations -- especially marriages, children (who aren't marked feature), and so on -- are speculative.

Aly is Ben's aunt, BTW. Sister is an error in the book, we'll get it corrected.

Re: the caveat, in some cases George provided us information that, say, Lord Celtigar did such and such during this past event, and we realize that our current Lord Celtigar must have been that lord in question... but George did not provide a name. So our Clement Celtigar is the son of a Lord Celtigar who figures in the Dance... and is mentioned, in the Dance material, as his father's heir. But we don't get his actual name. So basically, sometimes feature is "a character mentioned in passing, without a proper name, whom we had to invent a name for."

If the character does not appear in TWoIaF, I'd strongly urge not looking to the MUSH trees for canonical information.

That settles that so. Thanks for chiming in, Ran. I'll leave the MUSH peeps out. I'll have to wait for more official sources before I can link in all those Martells, Baratheons and Lannisters on my tree to Maron, Borros and Damon, respectively. I will keep Leowyn Corbray though, since you mentioned he was going to be in TWOIAF but was cut :hat:

Cheers also for the heads-up on Black Aly and her nephew Benjicot. Would she have been Cregan Stark's 2nd wife do you know, or has that yet to be established?

[Ran]

Yes, she's his second wife.

[El-Daddy]

Yes, she's his second wife.

Thanks.

[Maia]

Aly is Ben's aunt, BTW. Sister is an error in the book, we'll get it corrected..

Did her daughter by Cregan really marry back into the Blackwoods, like in the MUSH? Do Blackwoods in ASOIAF have a bit of Stark blood from him?

Also, wow, according to your AMA Larra Rogarre left Viserys in 139 when he was just 17-18?! And Naerys was just a toddler?! That's... Um. And she died just 6 years later - maybe as another victim of planned destruction of Rogarre family for daring to compete with the Iron Bank? Did she really leave because she didn't like it in Westeros, or because she thought that her presence was endangering her husband and children?

I guess, Viserys must have had mistresses and such after she left? Fascinating. Also, poor kid. Orphaned at a young age, captured by enemies, may have watched his eldest brother die trying to free him, kept hostage under the very real threat of death until finally found and ransomed, wife left him when he was just a teenager, eldest son turned out to be Aegon the Unworthy and likely murdered him... Viserys just couldn't catch a break, eh?

Re: Leowyn Corbray, might he have been named Protector of the Realm, because the Hand, Ser Tyland Lannister had been blinded and crippled and assumed unable to lead armies should the need arise?

[Ran]

I think the question about Corbray was more about why him rather than some more august lord in that office, but yes, a Protector in charge of the military side of things was doubtless because of Tyland's physical state.

Yes, Viserys did not have it easy. The shrewd, calculating man he is in his age is, I suspect, also probably a bit brittle (if not so melancholy as his older brother).

[Lord Varys]

Just to inquire on the byzantine structures of the Regency:

We have a council of seven regents effectively ruling in place of the minor monarch. The Hand serves them, and is technically answerable to them, but also speaks with 'the king's voice', which should (and most likely did) cause a lot of trouble.

Leowyn Corbray was Lord Protector but not a member of the council of regents, but became the supreme military commander because, I assume, Lady Jeyne Arryn could not hold that office as a woman in his stead?

Do you know anything about the deeds of those 10,000 Arryn men and the Corbray brothers during the Dance? They do not seem to show up in TPatQ. I assumed that Corwyn and Rhaena/Morning spent the whole war in the Vale, but that does not seem to all that likely now...

[Ran]

That would be for Fire and Blood.