The Two Walls (theory)

[I'm the Party Pooper]

until the Others were finally defeated by the Night's Watch at the Battle for the Dawn. After having pushed back the threat, the Wall was allegedly built by Bran the Builder in order to protect the Seven Kingdoms, should the Others ever return.

The NW was founded before the wall was constructed.

Indeed, thus:

- if the vow dates back to that moment, to what walls does it refer to..? Maybe the vow isn't as old or immutable as it seems, in fact there is right reason to think that some parts were added after the Night's King wrong doings..

- if the vow dates later on, it still holds that for decades they had to watch on a wall still being constructed. I don't want to sound preposterous, but it is common to start building in several different locations and join pieces together afterwards to speed up building time. Thus 'the walls' in the Night's Watch vow. Romans did this even with water pipes under the terrain level, for which maintaining a straight line was particularly difficult. So no technical difficulty to do it on the surface level.

Mine is only an objection of plausibility, I do not claim to be right with certainty, but rather that Occam's razor doesn't favour your claim in my opinion.

[Blazfemur]

im going to link my thread here, as well as, link this thread in mine. a lot of common core elements, and i think it would benefit us both actually, so heres mine, and ill to the same courtesy of linking yours in mine:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116209-spoilers-all-two-nights-watchtheir-true-history;-the-others-purpose;-tnk;-etc/page-4

[Blazfemur]

also (from my own thread):

Ok, not so much to go on in regards to formulating a theory on two walls, OTHER THAN, the (s) in the oath. However, i wouldn't discount it's existence, and here's why:

The Wall we know, beyond it, lies everything "beyond-the-wall (as a whole)", as well as, The Land Of Always Winter.

Consider the space, beyond the wall, and the land of always winter, and where the land of always winter ENDS. This is a planet, round, you end up on the other side eventually. The second wall, theoretically, would be at the end of (or in the middle of) the land of always winter, IF IT EXISTS.

if it exists, it's beyond where normal maps can define, and where mapmakers would have dared to travel. i would also brainstorm, the possibility, not only that The Others created The Wall, but rather created BOTH of them, in order to keep EVERYONE ELSE, out of their realm. like a castle has it's outer walls. in which case, if this is at all accurate, the wildlings, and the watch when they range and venture forth, would technically be (in the eyes of The Others) venturing onto THEIR land.

[TheLastStark]

Indeed, thus:

- if the vow dates back to that moment, to what walls does it refer to..? Maybe the vow isn't as old or immutable as it seems, in fact there is right reason to think that some parts were added after the Night's King wrong doings..

- if the vow dates later on, it still holds that for decades they had to watch on a wall still being constructed. I don't want to sound preposterous, but it is common to start building in several different locations and join pieces together afterwards to speed up building time. Thus 'the walls' in the Night's Watch vow. Romans did this even with water pipes under the terrain level, for which maintaining a straight line was particularly difficult. So no technical difficulty to do it on the surface level.

Mine is only an objection of plausibility, I do not claim to be right with certainty, but rather that Occam's razor doesn't favour your claim in my opinion.

Which claim of mine do you mean?

[TheLastStark]

im going to link my thread here, as well as, link this thread in mine. a lot of common core elements, and i think it would benefit us both actually, so heres mine, and ill to the same courtesy of linking yours in mine:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116209-spoilers-all-two-nights-watchtheir-true-history;-the-others-purpose;-tnk;-etc/page-4

Don't do it.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Which claim of mine do you mean?

My apologies, I should have been more specific :)

Leaving alone all the rest of your theory, I'm stuck to the claim: that "walls" in the vow is evidence for existence of two "parallel" walls.

At the very best I can concede that the use of the plural in the vow does not contradict your claim. But I'm a skeptic by nature, and this does not sound as evidence I would accept for believing it. :)

[TheLastStark]

My apologies, I should have been more specific :)

Leaving alone all the rest of your theory, I'm stuck to the claim: that "walls" in the vow is evidence for existence of two "parallel" walls.

At the very best I can concede that the use of the plural in the vow does not contradict your claim. But I'm a skeptic by nature, and this does not sound as evidence I would accept for believing it. :)

Again which claim do you mean? You know I didn't start this thread right?

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Again which claim do you mean? You know I didn't start this thread right?

LoL, I knew at first and forgot in the while. Sorry, my epic fail :)

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

the wall itself is called THE WALL- but it actually contains numerous walls within it- There are multiple forts along THE WALL- each of these forts has walls-

so the oath could be referring to all of the walls that make up THE WALL-

The NW we know is small in number and can barely man 4(is that right?) of the castles- when they were all manned with men- perhaps they thought of THE WALL as a bunch of smaller entities-

but what do I know-

[TheLastStark]

LoL, I knew at first and forgot in the while. Sorry, my epic fail :)

Lol, no problem. Although I did say that the two walls would more likely be the ice(physical) and then a magical one woven into the ice to 1)keep the wall standing and 2)keep the Others(assuming it keeps them out) and their wights out

[TheLastStark]

the wall itself is called THE WALL- but it actually contains numerous walls within it- There are multiple forts along THE WALL- each of these forts has walls-

so the oath could be referring to all of the walls that make up THE WALL-

The NW we know is small in number and can barely man 4(is that right?) of the castles- when they were all manned with men- perhaps they thought of THE WALL as a bunch of smaller entities-

but what do I know-

It's 3 castles until the wildlings start to help them man it. And that could very well be true.

[Blazfemur]

The existence of the (S) in the oath shouldnt be discounted. In fact if there is a twist, and there IS a second wall, the whole idea would be "ohman, there was an S the entire time, and we just chose to ignore it."

who knows. and again, other than brainstorming ideas, we wont know anything until tWoW. But im definitely open to brainstorm and debate :)

[Blazfemur]

id also like to add, in regards to there possibly being two SEPARATE walls (the one we know, the other lying far in the lands of always winter), that would encompass the land between the two walls, as the area "beyond-the-wall," and The Land Of Always Winter. Perhaps the "tax," or the "right," the live and exist in this area, is the child sacrifice (which requires first men blood for The Turning).

[Sir Lee knot]

The whole theory is built on one piece of wording and everything else is pretty much entirely assumption.

The watcher on the walls could easily be metaphorical for a castle and not the Wall it'self. It could also easily reference a time when the Wall didn't exist. We Know after the LN ended the Night's Watch was formed and Bran the Builder built the Wall. But we don't know exactly when it all happened. It stands to reason that perhaps Bran the builder hadn't begun building the Wall until several years after the LN and it wasn't complete until several more which also might explain why the Night Fort is the only castle with walls.

[JasonJD]

These two contradict each other, if the southern wall was ment to keep humans out 1)how would there be wildlings? 2)how would the NW get through? And also why would the wall only keep the Others out and not other mystical creatures? And then are you saying that the NW was comprised of more than just humans?

Can you show me the quote that proves certain oaths were added after the beginning of the NW. I'm not saying I don't believe you I just want to see the quote.

I like the idea of two walls, but I find it more likely that one wall is the ice the wall is made of(physical wall) and the other is the magical one(invisible) that keeps the Others and their wights out plus keeps the physical wall standing.

I wonder if the Wildlings didn't start as a small band or bands of humans that were essentially hostages as part of the treaty this theory supposes. Perhaps a larger version of Theon's 'fostering' with the Starks. Over time, the meaning of that was lost, but there's a certain irony in the 'free folk' starting as captives beyond the wall helping to ensure the behavior of the seven kingdoms. I have to ask myself why anyone would really stay on that side of the wall by choice.

[Rippounet]

Indeed, thus:

- if the vow dates back to that moment, to what walls does it refer to..?

Since the NW predates the Wall, it was probably tasked with guarding fortifications before that. The NW would likely have had to defend more than one castle to provide a line of defense against the Others, hence the plural "walls" in the vow.

In fact, given the name "Night's Watch," I'd speculate that the original men of the Night's Watch probably specialized in protecting fortified villages and castles from Others and wights during the Long Night. At first, they were probably closer to an elite force of fighters drawn from the forces of different Houses. Or maybe "Night's Watch" was just the term used throughout the North for the men who stood guard at each strategic location. At any rate, at some point they eventually formed an elite force which was able to push the Others back (probably thanks to the obsidian weapons given by the CotF).

The plural here reminds us that the Wall was only built once the Others were pushed back.

[Coxy]

I won't dismiss the idea that there could be two walls completely. I think the strongest case for this to be true is that GRRM used Hadrians wall as his inspiration. However, I really don't see what purpose a second wall would serve. The other theory being thrown around about a wall somewhere else in westeros is just too full of holes. Not buying it.

[Dorian Martell]

Since the NW predates the Wall, it was probably tasked with guarding fortifications before that. The NW would likely have had to defend more than one castle to provide a line of defense against the Others, hence the plural "walls" in the vow.

In fact, given the name "Night's Watch," I'd speculate that the original men of the Night's Watch probably specialized in protecting fortified villages and castles from Others and wights during the Long Night. At first, they were probably closer to an elite force of fighters drawn from the forces of different Houses. Or maybe "Night's Watch" was just the term used throughout the North for the men who stood guard at each strategic location. At any rate, at some point they eventually formed an elite force which was able to push the Others back (probably thanks to the obsidian weapons given by the CotF).

The plural here reminds us that the Wall was only built once the Others were pushed back.

Boom! This is it. The "Walls" were the defensive positions during the long night. the one single wall we have in the books was built after the long night to keep the others outside the realms of men, suggesting there was no treaty, no peace, no exchange or any parley. It was a giant magical wall to keep out the others and the undead.

[Daendrew]

Since the NW predates the Wall, it was probably tasked with guarding fortifications before that. The NW would likely have had to defend more than one castle to provide a line of defense against the Others, hence the plural "walls" in the vow.

In fact, given the name "Night's Watch," I'd speculate that the original men of the Night's Watch probably specialized in protecting fortified villages and castles from Others and wights during the Long Night. At first, they were probably closer to an elite force of fighters drawn from the forces of different Houses. Or maybe "Night's Watch" was just the term used throughout the North for the men who stood guard at each strategic location. At any rate, at some point they eventually formed an elite force which was able to push the Others back (probably thanks to the obsidian weapons given by the CotF).

The plural here reminds us that the Wall was only built once the Others were pushed back.

We haven't begun to see what The Night's Watch is. They have even forgotten. When that horn blows, another Age of Heroes is born. Giants, flaming swords, ice dragons, ice spiders... High Fantasy stuff. No longer the Game of Thrones but The Song of Ice and Fire.