Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

BearQueen87

R+L=J v.101

Recommended Posts

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v. 97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v. 98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v. 99" (thread ninety-nine)

R+L =J v.100 (thread one hundred)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, guys. I got tired of waiting so I went ahead and started this one. It was an hour without RLJ. I felt like I was losing my mind.



Ok, back from v100.



Mambru: let's...move on from the TOJ just for ONE thread. Just one. Cause I have a question. How do you respond to all the other clues about Jon = Legit Prince? Let's just go one by one



In GOT, Jon is watching Joff play at swords with the Starks. Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes. The thing you learn later is that Joff is a bastard. Doesn't this make Jon a Prince?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was, like, a whole hour on this forum where there was no R+L=J thread active. (!)



I was starting to get the shakes.



ETA: BearQueen: did you just ninja my R+L=J is like drugs joke?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, guys. I got tired of waiting so I went ahead and started this one. It was an hour without RLJ. I felt like I was losing my mind.

Ok, back from v100.

Mambru: let's...move on from the TOJ just for ONE thread. Just one. Cause I have a question. How do you respond to all the other clues about Jon = Legit Prince? Let's just go one by one

In GOT, Jon is watching Joff play at swords with the Starks. Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes. The thing you learn later is that Joff is a bastard. Doesn't this make Jon a Prince?

Ummm, AWESOME

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, guys. I got tired of waiting so I went ahead and started this one. It was an hour without RLJ. I felt like I was losing my mind.

Ok, back from v100.

Mambru: let's...move on from the TOJ just for ONE thread. Just one. Cause I have a question. How do you respond to all the other clues about Jon = Legit Prince? Let's just go one by one

In GOT, Jon is watching Joff play at swords with the Starks. Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes. The thing you learn later is that Joff is a bastard. Doesn't this make Jon a Prince?

if Jon is legitimate... it makes him king. He is only a prince if Aegon is real.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was, like, a whole hour on this forum where there was no R+L=J thread active. (!)

I was starting to get the shakes.

ETA: BearQueen: did you just ninja my R+L=J is like drugs joke?

Yes. Yes I did.

*shakes*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like these theories should be presented with Irri and Jhiqui chiming "It is known" after every textual fact is mentioned and Dwight stating "FALSE" for everything either middle ground or uncertain


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if Jon is legitimate... it makes him king. He is only a prince if Aegon is real.

Well Joff isn't King. It's a in text joke.

What Jon thinks he is saying:

Joff = Prince

Jon = Bastard

What's really going on:

Joff= bastard

Jon = Prince/King/Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who were married

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say that shows the KG see a fundamental difference between Rhaegar and Cersei and Tywin and others they've allowed to command them in the past and future...and the likeliest difference is that they don't think Jon is the King and Jon's mother therefore has no power to command them.

Another possibility is that Lyanna wasn't in any position to command them at the time. Remember, the dream narrative is not a literal account of events. Just because she was able to scream for Ned in the dream doesn't mean she would have been able to give orders to the 3KG in reality, even if they would have listened to her.

Must...finish...ToJ essay... 3000 words down, about 600 to go...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Joff isn't King. It's a in text joke.

What Jon thinks he is saying:

Joff = Prince

Jon = Bastard

What's really going on:

Joff= bastard

Jon = Prince/King/Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who were married

not nearly so catchy when iit has to go from

bastards don't get to hit princes.... as stated

to bastards dont get to hit kings/legitimate children

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Joff isn't King. It's a in text joke.

What Jon thinks he is saying:

Joff = Prince

Jon = Bastard

What's really going on:

Joff= bastard

Jon = Prince/King/Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who were married/Azor Ahai reborn/Sword of the Morning/The Last Airbender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Azor Ahai reborn/Sword of the Morning/The Last Airbender

Alright well now I really need Jon to do some bending in the series....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright well now I really need Jon to do some bending in the series....

Firebent the wight in Mormonts room. Jon is the next Avatar. After being stabbed he will access the Avatar State and surpress the mutineers with help from Tormund and his member

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mambru: let's...move on from the TOJ just for ONE thread. Just one. Cause I have a question. How do you respond to all the other clues about Jon = Legit Prince? Let's just go one by one

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born. " The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

-aDwD ch.7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...to his task.

:ack:

(also: I just noticed your new #FUCKHBO siggy. Poor sad JonCon and his red beard)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×