R+L=J v.101

[FrozenFire3]

snip

A shining example of a meaningless death.

[Black Crow]

Not at all, which is why I suggest that the vow referred to was about slaying the Usurper, his dog and and their forsworn brother; not just to avenge their king, Aerys, but to protect his grandson.

Compare and contrast this by looking at Viserys, the assumed heir, and how he fared with no armies to call his own and Bob Baratheon strutting around large as life.

[finger]

Not at all, which is why I suggest that the vow referred to was about slaying the Usurper, his dog and and their forsworn brother; not just to avenge their king, Aerys, but to protect his grandson.

Compare and contrast this by looking at Viserys, the assumed heir, and how he fared with no armies to call his own and Bob Baratheon strutting around large as life.

Not only revenge, fine.

Protecting his grandson, it might be.

What grandson, Jon? Hard to believe. His uncle Ned was his best chance to survive, unless he was snatched.

[*Leah]

I start saying I am a supporter of R + L = J theory. :) I was thinking about the first time I actually realized that... when I was reading Game of Thrones I started wondering about Jon's mother, of course, and Lyanna's last words made me think. I started asking myself: “What the hell did Ned promise her!?”. But during the reading of Game of Thrones I thought about Lyanna being Jon's mother once or twice, nothing more.
The first time I seriously thought about R + L = J was in A Clash of Kings, when Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard.
Rhaegar was a musician just like Bael, he “loved his harp more than he loved his lance”. And he loved Lyanna too. On the other hand, Lyanna was very fond of the blue winter roses that grew at Winterfell, she always appeared in Ned's dreams surrounded by blue petals and Rhaegar crowned her queen of beauty with the blue roses laurel as well. In the story of Bael, the lord of Winterfell's virgin daughter disappeared, and in her bed her father found the blue winter rose he gave to Bael.
In Game of Thrones is told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. In the story Ygritte told Jon the lord of Winterfell thought Bael kidnapped his daughter to rape her, but it wasn't true, because his daughter loved Bael. There were a lot of parallelisms between Rhaegar and Lyanna story and Bael the Bard legend, so I started thinking about R + L = J theory. And going on reading I found out a lot of evidences and clues.
When I finished all the books (I never read anything about AsoIaF on the internet before because of spoilers) I noticed I was not the only one. :)

Beautiful thread: I'm gonna read it all, as soon as I can.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I start saying I am a supporter of R + L = J theory. :) I was thinking about the first time I actually realized that... when I was reading Game of Thrones I started wondering about Jon's mother, of course, and Lyanna's last words made me think. I started asking myself: “What the hell did Ned promise her!?”. But during the reading of Game of Thrones I thought about Lyanna being Jon's mother once or twice, nothing more.

The first time I seriously thought about R + L = J was in A Clash of Kings, when Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard.

Rhaegar was a musician just like Bael, he “loved his harp more than he loved his lance”. And he loved Lyanna too. On the other hand, Lyanna was very fond of the blue winter roses that grew at Winterfell, she always appeared in Ned's dreams surrounded by blue petals and Rhaegar crowned her queen of beauty with the blue roses laurel as well. In the story of Bael, the lord of Winterfell's virgin daughter disappeared, and in her bed her father found the blue winter rose he gave to Bael.

In Game of Thrones is told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. In the story Ygritte told Jon the lord of Winterfell thought Bael kidnapped his daughter to rape her, but it wasn't true, because his daughter loved Bael. There were a lot of parallelisms between Rhaegar and Lyanna story and Bael the Bard legend, so I started thinking about R + L = J theory. And going on reading I found out a lot of evidences and clues.

When I finished all the books (I never read nothing about AsoIaF on the internet before because of spoilers) I noticed I was not the only one. :)

Beautiful thread: I'm gonna read it all, as soon as I can.

Five months ago i figured R+L=J and thought i was some kind of a genius who figured the mystery surrounding Jon's parentage,then i went to the forums to see 60-70 threads of R+L=J.

[*Leah]

Ahaha, yeah: I understand your feeling! u.u

But if you found it out all by yourself, it's a little satisfaction anyway! :)

[FrozenFire3]

I start saying I am a supporter of R + L = J theory. :) I was thinking about the first time I actually realized that... when I was reading Game of Thrones I started wondering about Jon's mother, of course, and Lyanna's last words made me think. I started asking myself: “What the hell did Ned promise her!?”. But during the reading of Game of Thrones I thought about Lyanna being Jon's mother once or twice, nothing more.

The first time I seriously thought about R + L = J was in A Clash of Kings, when Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard.

Rhaegar was a musician just like Bael, he “loved his harp more than he loved his lance”. And he loved Lyanna too. On the other hand, Lyanna was very fond of the blue winter roses that grew at Winterfell, she always appeared in Ned's dreams surrounded by blue petals and Rhaegar crowned her queen of beauty with the blue roses laurel as well. In the story of Bael, the lord of Winterfell's virgin daughter disappeared, and in her bed her father found the blue winter rose he gave to Bael.

In Game of Thrones is told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. In the story Ygritte told Jon the lord of Winterfell thought Bael kidnapped his daughter to rape her, but it wasn't true, because his daughter loved Bael. There were a lot of parallelisms between Rhaegar and Lyanna story and Bael the Bard legend, so I started thinking about R + L = J theory. And going on reading I found out a lot of evidences and clues.

When I finished all the books (I never read nothing about AsoIaF on the internet before because of spoilers) I noticed I was not the only one. :)

Beautiful thread: I'm gonna read it all, as soon as I can.

Welcome to the thread :)

Reading 101 versions is going to be a daunting task lol Ask away and regular R+L=Jers will be able to point you to specific discussions/analyses, dedicated essays and spin-off threads. In the meantime don't miss the upcoming R+L=J episode 5 on Radio Westeros, hosted by our brilliant Lady Gwynhyfvar and Yolkboy.

[BearQueen87]

I start saying I am a supporter of R + L = J theory. :) I was thinking about the first time I actually realized that... when I was reading Game of Thrones I started wondering about Jon's mother, of course, and Lyanna's last words made me think. I started asking myself: “What the hell did Ned promise her!?”. But during the reading of Game of Thrones I thought about Lyanna being Jon's mother once or twice, nothing more.

The first time I seriously thought about R + L = J was in A Clash of Kings, when Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard.

Rhaegar was a musician just like Bael, he “loved his harp more than he loved his lance”. And he loved Lyanna too. On the other hand, Lyanna was very fond of the blue winter roses that grew at Winterfell, she always appeared in Ned's dreams surrounded by blue petals and Rhaegar crowned her queen of beauty with the blue roses laurel as well. In the story of Bael, the lord of Winterfell's virgin daughter disappeared, and in her bed her father found the blue winter rose he gave to Bael.

In Game of Thrones is told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. In the story Ygritte told Jon the lord of Winterfell thought Bael kidnapped his daughter to rape her, but it wasn't true, because his daughter loved Bael. There were a lot of parallelisms between Rhaegar and Lyanna story and Bael the Bard legend, so I started thinking about R + L = J theory. And going on reading I found out a lot of evidences and clues.

When I finished all the books (I never read nothing about AsoIaF on the internet before because of spoilers) I noticed I was not the only one. :)

Beautiful thread: I'm gonna read it all, as soon as I can.

Welcome to RLJ!

Reading 101 versions is going to be a daunting task lol Ask away and regular R+L=Jers will be able to point you to specific discussions/analyses, dedicated essays and spin-off threads. In the meantime don't miss the upcoming R+L=J episode 5 on Radio Westeros, hosted by our brilliant Lady Gwynhyfvar and Yolkboy.

I would also recommend that, whenever Lady Gwyn pops in, use the RLJ link her thread to read a mega essay that might answer a lot of questions. And whenever it gets posted, check out MntLion's TOJ essay. It'll be posted here shortly (we like it to be close to page 1)

[Jon Snows Left sock]

I love these threads so much, great stuff chaps!

[mambru]

Mambru: let's...move on from the TOJ just for ONE thread. Just one. Cause I have a question. How do you respond to all the other clues about Jon = Legit Prince? Let's just go one by one

In GOT, Jon is watching Joff play at swords with the Starks. Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes. The thing you learn later is that Joff is a bastard. Doesn't this make Jon a Prince?

Sure, I'll play. Of course, that line may be a sly hint on the part of the author. But if Jon is the legitimate heir of House Targaryen, then he's its King, not its Prince. Maggy's prophecy seems to show you can't be both. And therefore if Jon is the King, then he's not the Prince that was Promised - and frankly, I think that's a much more important and necessary role for him to play in the future of the books than the role of the (historically speaking) newbie King of Westeros on the Iron Throne.

[mambru]

No way - there's nothing in the text ever to say KG will have to obey a king's mother, unless they had been ordered by the king to do so.

Cersei shushes Barristan when he protests her illegal tearing up of a legitimate order by King Bob that Ned should be Regent - and he shushes meekly.

Cersei orders Jaime to leave King Tommen and his KG protection in the newbie, incompetent, treacherous hands of Kettleblack and go halfway across the country to manage the war - he protests, but he goes.

Among other family members of the King: Rhaegar orders 42 % of his father's KG to stay at the ToJ, hundreds of miles away from the King in the middle of a civil war that the Targaryens are losing - and they stay. GRRM himself tells us that the KG has the obligation to protect the king, BUT if Rhaegar ordered them to do something they don't like, they still have to do it.

Why are these Royal family members empowered to command the KG - even against the KG's better judgement, even in orders that may endanger the king - but Lyanna isn't? Why do they ignore her wishes when they march down to kill Ned, when she is (probably) desperately calling for him to speak to her one last time before she dies?

IMO, the most likely explanation is that they don't consider Lyanna Royal Family, and therefore don't feel themselves bound to obey her - which means she is likely neither the wife of Rhaegar nor the mother of the King in their eyes.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I start saying I am a supporter of R + L = J theory. :) I was thinking about the first time I actually realized that... when I was reading Game of Thrones I started wondering about Jon's mother, of course, and Lyanna's last words made me think. I started asking myself: “What the hell did Ned promise her!?”. But during the reading of Game of Thrones I thought about Lyanna being Jon's mother once or twice, nothing more.

The first time I seriously thought about R + L = J was in A Clash of Kings, when Ygritte told Jon the story of Bael the Bard.

Rhaegar was a musician just like Bael, he “loved his harp more than he loved his lance”. And he loved Lyanna too. On the other hand, Lyanna was very fond of the blue winter roses that grew at Winterfell, she always appeared in Ned's dreams surrounded by blue petals and Rhaegar crowned her queen of beauty with the blue roses laurel as well. In the story of Bael, the lord of Winterfell's virgin daughter disappeared, and in her bed her father found the blue winter rose he gave to Bael.

In Game of Thrones is told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. In the story Ygritte told Jon the lord of Winterfell thought Bael kidnapped his daughter to rape her, but it wasn't true, because his daughter loved Bael. There were a lot of parallelisms between Rhaegar and Lyanna story and Bael the Bard legend, so I started thinking about R + L = J theory. And going on reading I found out a lot of evidences and clues.

When I finished all the books (I never read nothing about AsoIaF on the internet before because of spoilers) I noticed I was not the only one. :)

Beautiful thread: I'm gonna read it all, as soon as I can.

I think the promise was to raise the child as his own child. Of course, he would have to say that he was the child's father. Jon's parentage is a mystery worth solving. Ned was a honorable man by word. Even his honor caused him his life down the road. Yes, there are parallelisms to Bael and the Winterfell princess to Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were both young even though Rhaegar was older than Lyanna.

[BearQueen87]

Sure, I'll play. Of course, that line may be a sly hint on the part of the author. But if Jon is the legitimate heir of House Targaryen, then he's its King, not its Prince. Maggy's prophecy seems to show you can't be both. And therefore if Jon is the King, then he's not the Prince that was Promised - and frankly, I think that's a much more important and necessary role for him to play in the future of the books than the role of the (historically speaking) newbie King of Westeros on the Iron Throne.

Well I agree but it's like I said to SoD when he made the same objections...you can't call Joff king in the text. It's a sly hint, like you said but stays true to the perceived reality...Joff is a prince, Jon the bastard.

[MtnLion]

Not at all, which is why I suggest that the vow referred to was about slaying the Usurper, his dog and and their forsworn brother; not just to avenge their king, Aerys, but to protect his grandson.

Compare and contrast this by looking at Viserys, the assumed heir, and how he fared with no armies to call his own and Bob Baratheon strutting around large as life.

But . . . That in no way explains why Ned referred to them as a shining example for the world. One of them, Arthur Dayne, was the finest (most honorable) knight that Ned had ever known.

ETA: By the way, the App confirms that Lyanna was, and died at the tower. The quote is in my sig. ;)

[The Kinkslayer]

I hope Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married.

Bastards are way more badass than princes

Jon is legitimate, it is said that bastards grow faster than other children and Jon was shorter than Joffrey.

But in the series Jon seems shorter than Sansa, so I don't know.

[MtnLion]

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a cause of much of his grief. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, and the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this is reality based dreaming. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay.

Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[stateofdissipation]

I'm not really clear what you're saying there. It's the narrator, but the narrator is telling us about the contents of Ned's dream.

I don't doubt there really was a tower long fallen, Lyanna in her bed of blood and three knights in white cloaks in both reality and Ned's dream, but as for the received order of events (Ned arrives at tower, Ned fights 3KG, Ned talks to Lyanna, Lyanna dies), I'm struggling. I really can't find anything that demands that things happen in this order unless you accept that the dream is a close parallel of what actually happened, in the order they happened -- and that's a leap of faith, particularly given GRRM's comment that "...dreams are not always literal". Did I miss something? Anyone?

He dreamt an old dream.

Is not the in the dream

but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has promised never to forget.

Is not in the dream.

but as for the received order of events (Ned arrives at tower, Ned fights 3KG, Ned talks to Lyanna, Lyanna dies),

The Ned arrives at the tower, Ned talks with the KG, Ned fights the KG.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming ---aGoT page 410

"Eddard" she called, A storm of rose petals blew across the blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard" Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered, "Lya, I promise..."

"Lord Eddard" a man echoed from the dark.--aGoT page 410

Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.--aGoT 608

Ned remembers-608 and dreams-409 about Lyanna in her bed of blood. Lyanna asks Ned to promise in memory-page 40 and 608. Ned promises Lyanna something (410 dream and 40 memory) in the room that smelled of blood and roses and she dies memory from page 40.

Connect the showdown to Lyanna's death or not.

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain.- aFfC p. 21

Bed of blood is a term for childbirth. Ned remembered Lyanna in childbirth. (The term could be stretched to mean childbirth and some days and weeks after.)

Flowering is a term for menarche. Sansa flowered, had her first period. (The term could be stretched to mean had her 16th birthday.)

[MtnLion]

And, no Aegon was not present at the tower. Because if Aegon had been present Ned is not going to continue to think of him as dead. Dead. Dead

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well I agree but it's like I said to SoD when he made the same objections...you can't call Joff king in the text. It's a sly hint, like you said but stays true to the perceived reality...Joff is a prince, Jon the bastard.

The exact wording might not be right, but it's the message that counts. What Jon is basically saying is that bastard born people are not allowed to hurt royals in the practise yard. While Jon thinks at the time of saying it, that he is the bastard born, and Joffrey is the royal, in fact, Jon is the royal, while Joff is the bastard.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Jon is legitimate, it is said that bastards grow faster than other children and Jon was shorter than Joffrey.

But in the series Jon seems shorter than Sansa, so I don't know.

Sophie is 5'9

Kit is 5'7 to 5'8