R+L=J v.101

[Ygrain]

Since "it's a fever dream" comes up awfully often, I think I'll be posting this along with MtnLion's analysis:

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon is legitimate, it is said that bastards grow faster than other children and Jon was shorter than Joffrey.

But in the series Jon seems shorter than Sansa, so I don't know.

Show =/= books.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Show =/= books.

^ This!

[BearQueen87]

Since "it's a fever dream" comes up awfully often, I think I'll be posting this along with MtnLion's analysis:

[snip]

Yeeeeeees.

[*Leah]

Welcome to the thread :)

Reading 101 versions is going to be a daunting task lol Ask away and regular R+L=Jers will be able to point you to specific discussions/analyses, dedicated essays and spin-off threads. In the meantime don't miss the upcoming R+L=J episode 5 on Radio Westeros, hosted by our brilliant Lady Gwynhyfvar and Yolkboy.

Welcome to RLJ!

Thanks a lot! :)

Yeah, reading 101 threads it's pretty though, I know: this wasn't my intention. LOL But I'd like reading this one and the thread before. :)

Surely I'm gonna read what you post about Ned's dreams in the previous posts, because I read something very interesting.

Jon's parentage is a mystery worth solving.

I agree! :)

[stateofdissipation]

The exact wording might not be right, but it's the message that counts. What Jon is basically saying is that bastard born people are not allowed to hurt royals in the practise yard. While Jon thinks at the time of saying it, that he is the bastard born, and Joffrey is the royal, in fact, Jon is the royal, while Joff is the bastard.

So if you slyly take away what was actually said and paraphrase it in to a way that supports the assertion, the assertion is supported.

It was Jon's way of realizing Ned's point that Jon had no place in King's Landing. It did play a part in Jon's decision to leave the Seven Kingdoms for a place where a bastard can have honor.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Cersei

Was made regent by word of the king.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Show =/= books.

Hahahaha this is funny because I actually departed saying we would debate Jon's height in relation to Targ history and lineage and someone brings up physical stature.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

So if you slyly take away what was actually said and paraphrase it in to a way that supports the assertion, the assertion is supported.

It was Jon's way of realizing Ned's point that Jon had no place in King's Landing. It did play a part in Jon's decision to leave the Seven Kingdoms for a place where a bastard can have honor.

Agreed. You can look at his place at the feast as a forshadowing of this. The bastard was not wanted among the royals. And he's ok with it at that time. His conversation with his uncle seems to be a small tidbit as well. Even a bastard can have honor at the Wall. Jon believed he did not belong among royals and would never be accepted at court. Being a Man of the Night's Watch where all men are just men, social status does not apply, Jon thinks he does not have to live as a bastard anymore.

[Black Crow]

But . . . That in no way explains why Ned referred to them as a shining example for the world. One of them, Arthur Dayne, was the finest (most honorable) knight that Ned had ever known.

Quite the reverse. Remaining faithful to their king [Aerys] in spite of everything is a shining example.

As to the course I suggest they were embarking on - a vow to slay the Usurper and his dog - that makes far more sense than defending the tower and its presumed contents, which they conspicuously are not doing, that's something transient. Win or lose Lyanna's son will never be safe while Bob Baratheon lives.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Quite the reverse. Remaining faithful to their king [Aerys] in spite of everything is a shining example.

As to the course I suggest they were embarking on - a vow to slay the Usurper and his dog - that makes far more sense than defending the tower and its presumed contents, which they conspicuously are not doing, that's something transient. Win or lose Lyanna's son will never be safe while Bob Baratheon lives.

A vow to slay the Usurper and his dog seems an awful lot like they were making up their own orders.

GRRM also says that they knew what was in the Tower, we can argue about maybe there was nothing in the Tower or what was in there doesn't matter to them, but it doesn't quite seem to be that simple.

[lareine]

snip

I like your theory Black Crow. I think it's interesting and very cinematic, like the plot of a Kurosawa film.

Your idea that Ned found Lyanna at Starfall is especially intriguing. You are right, the way the dream is written, it does become much less literal towards the end when Lyanna herself becomes part of it. There's blue rose petals blowing accross the sky, Lyanna screaming, Ned hearing her call his name which then acts as a bridge from the dream back to reality when he hears the guard calling his name to wake him.

It could be that while dreaming, Ned's memories of two different but interrelated events merged into one. Ned's 'detour' to Starfall would also make a lot more sense if Lyanna was there. I realize that the app says she died at the tower, but at this point, the app is telling the 'official' story is it not? The only people who would have known the truth about where she died would have been Ned, Howland Reed and the Daynes, none of whom would have wanted it to come out.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

I like your theory Black Crow. I think it's interesting and very cinematic, like the plot of a Kurosawa film.

Your idea that Ned found Lyanna at Starfall is especially intriguing. You are right, the way the dream is written, it does become much less literal towards the end when Lyanna herself becomes part of it. There's blue rose petals blowing accross the sky, Lyanna screaming, Ned hearing her call his name which then acts as a bridge from the dream back to reality when he hears the guard calling his name to wake him.

It could be that while dreaming, Ned's memories of two different but interrelated events merged into one. Ned's 'detour' to Starfall would also make a lot more sense if Lyanna was there. I realize that the app says she died at the tower, but at this point, the app is telling the 'official' story is it not? The only people who would have known the truth about where she died would have been Ned, Howland Reed and the Daynes, none of whom would have wanted it to come out.

His detour to Starfall was an intentional course to bring Dawn back to House Dayne.

The app technically states she dies in the Red Mountains of Dorne

[BearQueen87]

His detour to Starfall was an intentional course to bring Dawn back to House Dayne.

The app technically states she dies in the Red Mountains of Dorne

Also, if you believe that there were servants--including a wet nurse--at the TOJ from Starfall, then Ned' "detour" was also to see those people back home and probably to talk to Ashara about everything that happened, on top of returning Dawn.

Also, I think we cannot under sell the importance that this all shocking and very new to Ned. He needs HELP in planning what comes next.

[stateofdissipation]

Since "it's a fever dream" comes up awfully often, I think I'll be posting this along with MtnLion's analysis:

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

Since "it's a fever dream" comes up awfully often, I think I'll be posting this along with MtnLion's analysis:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRM

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

As "fever dream" is from a SSM and not the text, perhaps an analysis of the SSM would be more appropriate.

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years.

Yes those are other words. Words not actually present

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years--aGoT page 412 =/=In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years.

"After so many years" is not the same thing as "many times in years"

He directly confirms parts of the dream

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.---aGoT page 409

It would have to be with his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled down the tower afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight Cairns on the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy but for Ned it had been a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away: Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland reed.--aGoT page 412

The Narrator confirmed the part of the dream that included "as they had in life"

as faithfully reflecting reality,

...but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has promised never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows grey wraiths on horses of mist,--aGoT page 409

And these were no shadows their faces burned clear, even now.--aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming

"Eddard" she called, A storm of rose petals blew across the blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. ---aGoT page 410

Or not.

and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

Or not.see page 412 for elaboration. The seven facing three is repeated. The conclusion to the fight that started on page 410 is given.

I will concede that Ned's dream is a more faithful reconstruction of reality than this post's reconstruction of the text. That is pretty much saying that not always literal is more reliable than consistently misrepresenting.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Lol @ people not understanding that in order for you to be a King, you need to be officially crowned, so yes, it's still the Prince that was Promised as he wasn't crowned, even though he'd be crown prince of the Targaryen dynasty at this point.

Oh, isn't it great that Aegon seems to be repairing the Targ dynasty right now? If they don't announce he's a Blackfyre, I guess if Jon can prove he's legitimate (though the how and why doesn't matter, I just wanted to mention this), he's the heir once more, and no conquering on his side required (no one thinks Aegon will make it, right?)

[lareine]

His detour to Starfall was an intentional course to bring Dawn back to House Dayne.

The app technically states she dies in the Red Mountains of Dorne

Also, if you believe that there were servants--including a wet nurse--at the TOJ from Starfall, then Ned' "detour" was also to see those people back home and probably to talk to Ashara about everything that happened, on top of returning Dawn.

Also, I think we cannot under sell the importance that this all shocking and very new to Ned. He needs HELP in planning what comes next.

All of that is possible, but I also think that Black Crow's ideas are interesting and possible too. It's refreshing to hear new ideas.

[BearQueen87]

All of that is possible, but I also think that Black Crow's ideas are interesting and possible too. It's refreshing to hear new ideas.

Sure, but I think the proposal that Lyanna wasn't in the Tower takes away from the significance of that scene. Ned was told where to go--the TOJ--to find Lyanna. Why would someone send him to the TOJ if she's really at Starfall?

[Ygrain]

I like your theory Black Crow. I think it's interesting and very cinematic, like the plot of a Kurosawa film.

Your idea that Ned found Lyanna at Starfall is especially intriguing. You are right, the way the dream is written, it does become much less literal towards the end when Lyanna herself becomes part of it. There's blue rose petals blowing accross the sky, Lyanna screaming, Ned hearing her call his name which then acts as a bridge from the dream back to reality when he hears the guard calling his name to wake him.

It could be that while dreaming, Ned's memories of two different but interrelated events merged into one. Ned's 'detour' to Starfall would also make a lot more sense if Lyanna was there. I realize that the app says she died at the tower, but at this point, the app is telling the 'official' story is it not? The only people who would have known the truth about where she died would have been Ned, Howland Reed and the Daynes, none of whom would have wanted it to come out.

It might be possible if this was a one-time event. However, he had dreamt the dream before, and I don't think it is plausible that the merge happened each time.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

All of that is possible, but I also think that Black Crow's ideas are interesting and possible too. It's refreshing to hear new ideas.

I do enjoy the back and forth, that's why I come here. If Lyanna wasn't at the ToJ though then what the heck is Ned doing going to ToJ? Perhaps she spent time at ToJ and went to Starfall afterwards, riding through the Pass past Skyreach and into the Mountains and crossing a river, or through the Stormlands around Highgarden and Hornhill. Possible, less likely than her just being at the Tower