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Game Of Thrones

Theory: The Storm God represents the CotF (fixed quoting issues)

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There are probably no Sea Dragons in Westeros. Nagga was the first Sea Dragon according to Ironborn legends, meaning there were many more Sea Dragons following Nagga, but we never hear of Reachmen, Westermen, Rivermen or Northmen legends about sea dragons, although the Northern and Western fleets and fishermen should have seen them at sea, and a beached sea dragon would not be easily forgotten.
Compare the lack of Sea Dragon legends in mainland Westeros with the Other legends, which can be found pretty much everywhere. It certainly seems like Sea Dragons, if they ever existed, were very rare. And that doesnt fit in well with the claim that Nagga was the first Sea Dragon, which means there used to be many Sea Dragons.
And of course, GRRM blatantly tells us that Nagga isnt what she seems to be


On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees.

Ahead loomed the sacred shore of Old Wyk and the grassy hill above it, where the ribs of Nagga rose from the earth like the trunks of great white trees, as wide around as a dromond's mast and twice as tall.

And (Raventree Weirwood)

In another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot."

And (Arya at High Heart talking about a destroyed weirwood grove)

Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods.

Naggas bones are petrified weirwoods.

But what happened to the Children of the Forest there?

Meanwhile, the existence of skinchangers in the Iron Islands:

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days' sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea.

We know that

1) Farwynds are queer and the Lonely Light Farwynds are the queerest

2) Farwynds of the Lonely Light were once probably skinchangers

3) Drowned God followers see skinchangers as unholy


And

The vision he spoke of was doubtless a snare set by the Storm God to lure the ironborn to destruction.

So

1) Gylbert Farwynd has had a vision, possibly a Green Dream?

2) Damphair considers his vision a snare set by the Storm God. The Children of the Forest are connected to skinchangers, and the skinchanging Farwynds are connected to the Storm God.

So could the Storm God of Ironborn myths be an allusion to the CotF?

And, most importantly..

[Damphair] had no love of maesters. Their ravens were creatures of the Storm God, and he did not trust their healing, not since Urri.

So Ravens are creatures of the Storm God. Ravens are also creatures of the CotF, and the CotF taught the First Men to use ravens as messengers. This makes it very likely that the Storm God represents the CotF.


So now lets see what the Storm God did.

The Storm God probably sent Nagga, since his archenemy the Drowned God helped in the slaying of Nagga.
If we assume Sea Dragons are mythic versions of weirwoods, it certainly makes sense that Nagga and other Sea Dragons would be associated with the Storm God. But if we assume that Nagga is an actual Sea Dragon, it makes little sense because Sea Dragons should naturally be a servant of the Drowned God. So that means there are more ruined weirwood groves in the Iron Islands, by the way.

And the Storm God swept away the Grey Kings Hall. We are also told that the Grey King used Naggas teeth as a crown, her jaw as a throne, and warmed his hall built inside Naggas ribs with her living fire. If we assume that Nagga=weirwood, the Grey King had his palace inside a sacred CotF grove, and wore a weirwood crown and sat on a weirwood throne, and used weirwood as firewood. We know the CotF HATE burning weirwoods. To the CotF, this must have been blasphemy, so they called upon the Hammer of the Waters and swept away the Grey Kings Palace.

But how could the Ironborn represent the CotF, who sing songs of the earth, with the Storm God? Well, we know of two surviving remnants of the First Men religion: the Ironborn religion and the Sistermen religion. They are both remarkably similar but they have one major difference. In the Sisters, storms are holy, but in the Iron Islands, they are evil. This suggests that in the original First Men religion, the Evil God (this is my name for the hypothetical god of evil in the First Men religion) had nothing to do with storms, and that the association of the Evil God with storms was an Ironborn invention, probably caused by merging the Lord of the Skies with the Evil God. So since the Storm God was originally just a god of evil and not a god of storms, the CotF could have easily been connected to the Storm God.


Another mystery: Why are Old Wyk and Great Wyk both called Wyk? IMO, this is because they were once one island. We know that there are toponyms like Shatterstone in Old Wyk. Ill call this hypothetic island Wyk.
So why was Wyk divided into two? It was probably caused by the CotF: When they destroyed the Grey Kings Hall, with the Hammer of the Waters, they also divided Wyk into two. This was self-defence as well as vengeance because Great Wyk was the CotFs last refuge in the Iron Islands, as seen from the fact that the only Ironborn skinchangers live in the westernmost coast of Great Wyk.
But the IB finally invaded Great Wyk. The CotF were pushed west, and west, and west, until their only lands were the future Farwynd lands, on the westernmost coast of Great Wyk. There, the Farwynds learned skinchanging, possibly from the CotF who were sympathetic to the First Men.


So, to sum up: There were Children of the Forest in the Iron Islands, who had weirwood groves in Naggas Hill and other places. When the First Men landed, they warred with the CotF. The FM considered the CotF to be servants of their god of evil. The humans won and the Grey King, the first King of Salt and Rock, made a palace in the site of a holy CotF grove and used weirwood for firewood. This infuriated the CotF who called upon the Hammer of the Waters, and destroyed the Grey Kings Hall as well as dividing Wyk into two. But the CotF continued to be pushed west by the FM, until their last lands were the westernmost coast of Great Wyk. The Farwynds learned skinchanging from these last CotF.





And a special thanks to everyone at the Small Questions thread, for providing most of the quotes in this thread. My AFFC copy recently vanished mysteriously :(

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I like it. It makes a lot more sense than actual Sea Dragons, since we haven't even heard of the stories outside of the Iron Islands.



On the other hand, how would this go with the whole Others x Humans thing, since we already have "dead things in the water"? Is the Drowned God connected to the Others or to their main power? Who can say...



Wait: Does this mean we actually have a chance to see a warged Kraken fight? That would be awesome!


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Fascinating! I think you are on to something. I had suspected Nagga's bones and noted the Fairwynds skinchanging, but you've gone well beyond and outlined a solid theory! :bowdown:



:)


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On the other hand, how would this go with the whole Others x Humans thing, since we already have "dead things in the water"? Is the Drowned God connected to the Others or to their main power? Who can say...

IMO the Drowned God is about as real as Cthulhu.

An interesting fact: The Sistermen equivalent of the Drowned God is probably the Lady of the Waves. The Drowned God is male but the LotW is female.

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i always assume the sea dragon was a myth and naggas "bones" were an old weirwood grove. lets face it.. as much as i love them, the iron born are resistant to change and blind to the obvious.

:agree:

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This is more or less how I understand it too. The "Storm God" is basically the god of the sky, so things like ravens would be this god's "evil thralls."



Another location of "sea dragons" is Sea Dragon Point on the West Coast of the North. Guess what's at SDP? Circles of weirwoods.


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Another location of "sea dragons" is Sea Dragon Point on the West Coast of the North. Guess what's at SDP? Circles of weirwoods.

Nice catch. I'm pretty certain by now that all Sea Dragons refer to weirwoods.

And I think Sea Dragon Point is an Ironborn toponym that was adopted by the Northmen.

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Nice catch. I'm pretty certain by now that all Sea Dragons refer to weirwoods.

And I think Sea Dragon Point is an Ironborn toponym that was adopted by the Northmen.

Yea, I'm kind of very inclined to agree with the bolded. Here, since you said you don't have access to FFC, I can give you some of the full quotes that pertain (the last is about the IB's view of the afterlife, which might be interesting):

For a thousand thousand years sea and sky had been at war. From the sea had come the ironborn, and the fish that sustained them even in the depths of winter, but storms brought only woe and grief.

Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga’s ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga’s teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga’s living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King’s warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga’s fire after the Grey King’s death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King’s great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga’s bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

“My brother Balon made us great again, which earned the Storm God’s wrath. He feasts now in the Drowned God’s watery halls, with mermaids to attend his every want. It shall be for us who remain behind in this dry and dismal vale to finish his great work.”

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If the Ironborn hated the CotF so much, why didn't they get rid of the Farwynds and their skinchanging habits? It seems a bit odd that the Farwynds have been around for so long if skinchanging and other CotF-related things are abhorred so much by other Ironborn. After all, we haven't heard of any skinchangers in the South since the Andals invaded and drove out the CotF-derived First Men culture.


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Some supporting thoughts about Nagga's Ribs:



Nagga's Ribs are certainly not those of a whale, as there are far too many and ribs are not straight. Mammals all have 12 ribs. Neither are they likely sea dragon bones, as dragon bone is black from the iron content. Dragons are also, "fire made flesh," thus the concept of a sea dragon seems out of place (not to say there wasn't some other dragon-like sea creature/serpent, just that it is likely unrelated to true dragons).



Weirwoods turn to stone over time and we have seen several sacred groves with arrangements of trees in lines and circles.



:)


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If the Ironborn hated the CotF so much, why didn't they get rid of the Farwynds and their skinchanging habits? It seems a bit odd that the Farwynds have been around for so long if skinchanging and other CotF-related things are abhorred so much by other Ironborn. After all, we haven't heard of any skinchangers in the South since the Andals invaded and drove out the CotF-derived First Men culture.

1. The Andals were assimilated in the Iron Islands.

2. That's why the only remaining skinchanging Farwynds now live in a group of rocks, hundreds of leagues west of Great Wyk: they assimilated and lost Skinchanging, or were pushed west like the CotF into rocks west of Great Wyk.

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IMO the Drowned God is about as real as Cthulhu.

An interesting fact: The Sistermen equivalent of the Drowned God is probably the Lady of the Waves. The Drowned God is male but the LotW is female.

Cthulhu is REAL!!! :D

I can see similarity between the LotW and the Drowned God. Perhaps they are the same god indeed, but the question still stands: How will this sea x sky thing work, if the CotF are the "Storm God's" tools?

I think that we will see Krakens take place in the fights, perhaps as close as TWOW. But I'd like to know if there is any foreshadowing as to which side they'll fight for...

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1. The Andals were assimilated in the Iron Islands.

2. That's why the only remaining skinchanging Farwynds now live in a group of rocks, hundreds of leagues west of Great Wyk: they assimilated and lost Skinchanging, or were pushed west like the CotF into rocks west of Great Wyk.

1. I wasn't talking about Andals in the Iron Islands, rather I was trying to draw a comparison between the Andals and the Ironborn.

2. Makes sense.

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Cthulhu is REAL!!! :D

I can see similarity between the LotW and the Drowned God. Perhaps they are the same god indeed, but the question still stands: How will this sea x sky thing work, if the CotF are the "Storm God's" tools?

I don't think the Storm God was originally a sky deity.

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Nice catch. I'm pretty certain by now that all Sea Dragons refer to weirwoods.

And I think Sea Dragon Point is an Ironborn toponym that was adopted by the Northmen.

Fantastic synthesis and a great post. We're currently discussing the weirwoods over in Heresy 133 (in the ADWD sub forum), and hope you won't mind if I refer to some of your analysis here. I took a much more general approach to the weirwoods in my OP there - and there's so much to talk about with respect to Nagga, that she really deserves her own thread (like this one!).

One of the things I really like about your piece is how it provides additional context for issues touched on elsewhere in the text. Patchface's prophecies, of course, and also Jon Snow's impression of the Haunted Forest as seen from the Fist: "a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable."

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