R+L=J v. 102

[mambru]

As a small aside, I don't think Rhaegar would have spent any more time in Elia's bed seeing as another pregnancy would have probably been the death of her, so I don't think there would have been any bed hopping at all.

IIRC, Aegon was not born till after the Harrenhal tourney - and the Harrenhal tourney was where Rhaegar showed his first romantic interest in Lyanna. Elia was not pronounced unfit to have another child till after Aegon was born. So when Rhaegar rode past his wife and deposited the crown of Queen of Love and Beauty in Lyanna's lap, Elia was still a perfectly functional wife with no justification for her husband setting her aside...and Lyanna knew it. So at that point, Rhaegar was showing a desire to increase his occupancy of beds from one to two...quite aside from any altruistic concerns for Elia's safety. There's no way around that fact. So yeah, Lyanna was a bit hypocritical in the light of her earlier statement. As I said, a teenager.

And I happen to think that Lyanna accepted those romantic overtures around the time of Harrenhal...because to me, it boggles belief that they had NO relationship for all the time between the Harrenhal tourney and Aegon's birth, and then suddenly Rhaegar pops up and says, "Hi, remember me? I gave you that wreath?" and Lyanna immediately runs off with him. IMO, that elopement took mutual planning. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I don't think the books ever said that pregnancy would be the death of Elia - just that she couldn't get pregnant anymore. And even if not - even in the pseudomedieval world of Westeros the inhabitants are aware that there are lots of things you can do in a bed that don't necessarily involve pregnancy. :)

[mambru]

We all agree.

We do?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

We do?

Thought we did. So we all, 'xcept @mambru, agree ;)

[stateofdissipation]

Talk about using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law!

Did you even read the definitions you quoted? If you think Ned was a compulsive liar, then you believe in an assumption you created without any textual evidence. With that in mind, what are Ned's lies? If he is telling a lie to protect someone, or if he is telling the same lie over and over again to maintain a secret over the course of 14 years, that isn't a compulsive liar, not even close, especially when those necessary lies still make him feel uncomfortable. If Ned were the compulsive liar you maintain, then nothing he says is trustworthy, and he never would have earned the reputation for being such a staunchly honest and honorable man.

"You are an honest and honourable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life... When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why." ~ Varys AGOT Chp. 58

"I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty." ~ Stannis Baratheon ASOS Chp. 76

"You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move." ~ Petyr Baelish AGOT Chp. 47

"You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark" ~ Robert Baratheon AGOT Chp. 30

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed."~ Robert Baratheon AGOT Chp. 12

Cersei: "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

Eddard: "I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine, but that was not one of them." ~ AGOT Chp. 45

And when he does lie, it tears him up inside and leaves him with sleepless nights.

"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." Eddard Stark AGOT Chp. 12

Did you even read the definitions you quoted? If you think Ned was a compulsive liar, then you believe in an assumption you created without any textual evidence.

I accepted Kingmonkey's assertions about Ned lying...

With that in mind, what are Ned's lies?

Ask Kingmonkey.... i did not make it up

If he is telling a lie to protect someone, or if he is telling the same lie over and over again to maintain a secret over the course of 14 years, that isn't a compulsive liar, not even close, especially when those necessary lies still make him feel uncomfortable.

Kingmonkey's list of lies included lies told to manipulate... and without any guilt or remorse.

If Ned were the compulsive liar you maintain, then nothing he says is trustworthy,

Correct...

and he never would have earned the reputation for being such a staunchly honest and honorable man.

again Correct...

Kingmonkey's assertion also included that Ned's reputation for honesty was incorrect

Robert tells Ned that "You could never lie for love nor honour, Ned Stark", but he's wrong.

I completely agree with your assessment.....

We have no basis to assert that the following quotes from Ned are lies:

"Your grace, the girl is scarce more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister to slaughter innocents,"--aGoT page 107

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343

We have plenty of basis to show the statements are wrong... but none to show that Ned did not think it.

[BearQueen87]

IIRC, Aegon was not born till after the Harrenhal tourney - and the Harrenhal tourney was where Rhaegar showed his first romantic interest in Lyanna. Elia was not pronounced unfit to have another child till after Aegon was born. So when Rhaegar rode past his wife and deposited the crown of Queen of Love and Beauty in Lyanna's lap, Elia was still a perfectly functional wife with no justification for her husband setting her aside...and Lyanna knew it. So at that point, Rhaegar was showing a desire to increase his occupancy of beds from one to two...quite aside from any altruistic concerns for Elia's safety. There's no way around that fact. So yeah, Lyanna was a bit hypocritical in the light of her earlier statement. As I said, a teenager.

And I happen to think that Lyanna accepted those romantic overtures around the time of Harrenhal...because to me, it boggles belief that they had NO relationship for all the time between the Harrenhal tourney and Aegon's birth, and then suddenly Rhaegar pops up and says, "Hi, remember me? I gave you that wreath?" and Lyanna immediately runs off with him. IMO, that elopement took mutual planning. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I don't think the books ever said that pregnancy would be the death of Elia - just that she couldn't get pregnant anymore. And even if not - even in the pseudomedieval world of Westeros the inhabitants are aware that there are lots of things you can do in a bed that don't necessarily involve pregnancy. :)

1) Yes Aegon was born after HH, but we don't know when Rhaegar began to actively pursue L. Remember, he rode right back to E after the tourney had fathered a child with her. IMO HH wasn't about declaring that he wanted to sleep with or marry L

2) It does say E would die if she had another child. Re-read JonCon's final POV in Dance

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So when Rhaegar rode past his wife and deposited the crown of Queen of Love and Beauty in Lyanna's lap, Elia was still a perfectly functional wife with no justification for her husband setting her aside...and Lyanna knew it. So at that point, Rhaegar was showing a desire to increase his occupancy of beds from one to two...

Hmm, first of all I think he chivalrously righted the wrong of him and not the KotLT being the winner of the tourney - so I think. And thereby slighting Elia and ruining the day for most all of the realm :)

While he showed an interest, he did not pursue it until Aegon was born and Elia no longer able to bear children without risking her death more than the usual according to the KL maesters.

[BearQueen87]

Thought we did. So we all, 'xcept @mambru, agree ;)

so just another day in RLJ, then

[sj4iy]

so just another day in RLJ, then

Hey, it keeps it interesting. Otherwise this thread would have died looooong ago XD

[mambru]

1) Yes Aegon was born after HH, but we don't know when Rhaegar began to actively pursue L. Remember, he rode right back to E after the tourney had fathered a child with her. IMO HH wasn't about declaring that he wanted to sleep with or marry L

Seems to me that riding past your own (still fertile and nonoffending) wife to deposit the Queen of Love and Beauty Wreath on another woman (or girl's) lap is certainly an open expression of romantic interest (with the possible increase of beds involved). The observers took it as such. Barristan took it as the beginning of the whole trouble - he even thinks to himself that IF ONLY he'd kicked Rhaegar's ass in that tournament the whole war might have been averted. That's how much significance he attaches to it as the beginning of their romance. And even if that romance did NOT continue in private till after the birth of Aegon (which I don't believe), the fact that we think Lyanna was still open to a romance with Rhaegar after he gave her that wreath means that she was likely emotionally moved and attracted to him, instead of writing him off in her thoughts with, "Oh, gods, what a sleazebag, his wife is right there. I thought he was different from Robert after that lovely song." Which, again, shows a bit of hypocrisy on her part.

2) It does say E would die if she had another child. Re-read JonCon's final POV in Dance

It says, "She would bear no more children." It could mean either that another pregnancy would kill her, or that she had simply been rendered barren by the rigors of the last one. Either way, it wasn't true that she was infertile at the time of Harrenhal, and so it doesn't absolve Lyanna of the charge of being a bit of a hypocrite (not that I'm saying that's a mortal sin. I doubt any us can say we've NEVER been a bit of a hypocrite at some time in our lives).

[BearQueen87]

Hey, it keeps it interesting. Otherwise this thread would have died looooong ago XD

Totally. I appreciate Mambru and the debates. :)

[BearQueen87]

Seems to me that riding past your own (still fertile and nonoffending) wife to deposit the Queen of Love and Beauty Wreath on another woman (or girl's) lap is certainly an open expression of romantic interest (with the possible increase of beds involved). The observers took it as such. Barristan took it as the beginning of the whole trouble - he even thinks to himself that IF ONLY he'd kicked Rhaegar's ass in that tournament the whole war might have been averted. That's how much significance he attaches to it as the beginning of their romance. And even if that romance did NOT continue in private till after the birth of Aegon (which I don't believe), the fact that we think Lyanna was still open to a romance with Rhaegar after he gave her that wreath means that she was likely emotionally moved and attracted to him, instead of writing him off in her thoughts with, "Oh, gods, what a sleazebag, his wife is right there. I thought he was different from Robert after that lovely song." Which, again, shows a bit of hypocrisy on her part.

Well I see it more as part of the KotLT incident...which IMO is a very big part of the QoLaB incident. He rode right back to Elia afterwards. He might have been sexually attracted to L, but that's not a sin. He went back to his wife and fathered a son.

[Natasi]

And even if not - even in the pseudomedieval world of Westeros the inhabitants are aware that there are lots of things you can do in a bed that don't necessarily involve pregnancy. :)

From what the text tells us, Rhaegar and Elia were an arranged couple and Rhaegar was only described as being fond of her. There is no mention of passion or romantic love, or even of lust. Somehow, I can't see Rhaegar and Elia participating in non-procreative sex acts. Just my opinion though, which I've formed from my reading of the text.

[BearQueen87]

From what the text tells us, Rhaegar and Elia were an arranged couple and Rhaegar was only described as being fond of her. There is no mention of passion or romantic love, or even of lust. Somehow, I can't see Rhaegar and Elia participating in non-procreative sex acts. Just my opinion though, which I've formed from my reading of the text.

I agree with you. Any "sex life" R and E had was perfunctory and solely for the making of little baby Dragons.

[sj4iy]

I agree with you. Any "sex life" R and E had was perfunctory and solely for the making of little baby Dragons.

Agreed. I wonder if crowing Lyanna was the first time Rhaegar and Lyanna interacted? Somehow I think not.

[stateofdissipation]

Talk about using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law!

"You are an honest and honourable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life... When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why." ~ Varys AGOT Chp. 58

"I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty." ~ Stannis Baratheon ASOS Chp. 76

"You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move." ~ Petyr Baelish AGOT Chp. 47

"You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark" ~ Robert Baratheon AGOT Chp. 30

It follows that:

"Your grace, the girl is scarce more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister to slaughter innocents,"--aGoT page 107

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343

are true statements of Ned's beliefs,

Robert's words give Ned cause to doubt these statements. Robert's actions prove Ned's stated beliefs were wrong. We do not have a basis to assert that Ned did not believe them,

[mambru]

Hmm, first of all I think he chivalrously righted the wrong of him and not the KotLT being the winner of the tourney - so I think. And thereby slighting Elia and ruining the day for most all of the realm :)

I think the suitable gift for a woman who's honed her martial skill in secret and wanting to keep it that way is probably something more like being privately sent her very own Valyrian sword. Or maybe a really good suit of armor made to her measure. IMO, it certainly would have been a lot more appropriate than being publically and embarrassingly given a token of romantic interest from a prince in front of his wife, which insults the wife and leaves every judgey observer thinking that Lyanna's a shameless hussy who's probably been leading the prince on. Definitely the wrong gift. I think Miss Manners even says so.

[MtnLion]

Yes, I think the jury is still out on that. The prophecies may concern a related set of figures and events, or even the same set of figures and events - but that wouldn't necessarily mean these two phrases refer to the same person.

For one thing, if I'm right that it is a Dragon that was promised... well, we already have both AA and a dragon in the prophecy from Asshai. Perhaps the dragon that was promised will also be wakened from stone by AAR? Who knows...

So, you are subscribing to the idea that Valyria had royalty, even though GRRM has said otherwise?

[MtnLion]

Talk about using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law!

That's why lawyers don't write stories. ;)

[BearQueen87]

I think the suitable gift for a woman who's honed her martial skill in secret and wanting to keep it that way is probably something more like being privately sent her very own Valyrian sword. Or maybe a really good suit of armor made to her measure. IMO, it certainly would have been a lot more appropriate than being publically and embarrassingly given a token of romantic interest from a prince in front of his wife, which insults the wife and leaves every judgey observer thinking that Lyanna's a shameless hussy who's probably been leading the prince on. Definitely the wrong gift. I think Miss Manners even says so.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. It wasn't one of Rhaegar's brightest moments. Though, wouldn't there be a ton of questions if R sent Lyanna a sword...? What is the right gift here, Miss Manners?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So, you are subscribing to the idea that Valyria had royalty, even though GRRM has said otherwise?

No, not at all. Not sure where you got that, but I'd be happy to clarify...