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R+L=J v. 102


RumHam

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I assume by "most important" you mean the conflicts of the heart? Even if Elia was in the know about Rhaegar and Lyanna (and prophecy) and was accepting of it, I don't think she was without conflict. As you've rightly pointed out many times, Elia still has a duty to her family and their position. Her conflict may not be of a romantic nature--ie: the spurned wife who's husband is off with another lady--but in trying to get her two brothers to understand that all this was planned and that Rhaegar himself knows what he's doing. Perhaps implausible given how Planetos politics work, I know.

I take this with all a grain of salt, and though I've allowed myself to get drawn into conflicts, (due to tone), at this point I just try and enjoy myself with the understanding we won't agree on everything, enjoying the connections, and realizing I could be wrong about everything. :)

If I'm right, then I'm taking my odds to Las Essos. :)

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Nitpick: Elia was bed ridden for half a year after Rhaenys. She was obviously not healthy when it came to bearing children. So inadequate might be a step too far, but she wasn't The Mother Goddess either.

Still the same objection, regardless. Elia was recovered and attending the Tourney. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the wreath - hence publically declaring his romantic interest in her - while Elia was still capable of conjugal relations and pregnancy - and indeed Rhaegar availed himself of that capacity AFTER the tourney. So at the time of the tourney, Rhaegar was expressing interest in a possible lover while maintaining conjugal relations with a wife...that is, NOT keeping to his own bed.

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I take this with all a grain of salt, and though I've allowed myself to get drawn into conflicts, (due to tone), at this point I just try and enjoy myself with the understanding we won't agree on everything, enjoying the connections, and realizing I could be wrong about everything. :)

If I'm right, then I'm taking my odds to Las Essos. :)

Oh same about enjoying everything. It's cool that we see it differently (and chances are you're more right than I am)

And, Mambru, here's J. Stargaryen's thread about the Sansa/Loras and HH tourney: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82623-jon-snow-and-the-blue-winter-rosetta-stone/?hl=%2Bblue+%2Brosetta+%2Bstone

It's well worth the read.

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Naw, I searched for it and came up empty. It is relatively recent though.

I looked too, and came up empty for both things. There's a chance he dated the prophecy or the founding of Valyria in one of the videos, I didn't watch all of those. Still unless you can provide a source I'm gonna have to assume you were mistaken, it happens to the best of us. Once I was sure there was a SSM where Martin said he changed his plans to send Daenerys to Asshai, but then couldn't find it for the life of me.

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Yeah, for a woman scorned, we've heard absolutely nothing about her anger. It's very strange.

Well, after the tourney, Elia might simply have thought that Rhaegar was interested in Lyanna as a possible mistress - and as a woman of Dorne, she might be resigned to this as business as usual, since bastards are a respected commonplace there. So it would have been unladylike of her to kick up a fuss about that...especially since she hadn't yet given birth to a son, so her own position was precarious, and she needed to keep relations amicable with Rhaegar so he wouldn't just COMPLETELY set her aside in favor of the healthier-looking Lyanna.

But accepting a discreet mistress and bastard is very different from accepting a second wife with her legitimate children, especially after Elia's given birth to a son. A bastard is no threat to her son - a legitimate Stark half-brother definitely is. And the Red Keep is full of Varys' spies, so I really doubt Rhaegar asked and received her permission to beget a legitimate rival for Aegon with Lyanna - he'd be too afraid that either Elia or Varys would mess up his plans. He probably rode off without warning - and after that, it didn't matter what Elia did in protest. She was Aerys' prisoner.

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If you guys could throw some positive thoughts out there, I have a coworkers eighteen year old God son with testicular cancer that has spread to his lungs. His mother is dead and the father is not in the picture.

Ironically, his name is Brandon.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Positive thoughts going out into the universe.

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Nitpick: Elia was bed ridden for half a year after Rhaenys. She was obviously not healthy when it came to bearing children. So inadequate might be a step too far, but she wasn't The Mother Goddess either.

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker.

She was very clearly an unhealthy woman long before she ever had kids.

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If you guys could throw some positive thoughts out there, I have a coworkers eighteen year old God son with testicular cancer that has spread to his lungs. His mother is dead and the father is not in the picture.

Ironically, his name is Brandon.

Sorry. Prayers.

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If you guys could throw some positive thoughts out there, I have a coworkers eighteen year old God son with testicular cancer that has spread to his lungs. His mother is dead and the father is not in the picture.

Ironically, his name is Brandon.

Sorry to hear that, hoping everything turns out well for him.

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The exact and full quote is

I bolded the important part.

  • Rhaenys' birth was bad

Aegon's birth almost killed

Hmm... what would a third birth do to her?

3. It isn't certain that the betrothal took place after the Tourney. It could also have taken place before. Harrenhal is currently the only event where we have Lyanna and Robert together, but there could have been other events. After the tourney, the weather might have turned to winter again too quickly for Ned to discuss the matter with Robert and return to Winterfell, and then make it back to the Eyrie again safely.

5. That would be Lady Shella Whent's daughter, whose name we have yet to learn.

3. It is quite certain (as the story goes thus far) that Ned went from the Eyrie to Harrenhal for the toruney. Before the false spring it was winter, so him travelling to Winterfell and back to the Eyrie before the tourney is much more unlikely than him going to Winterfell after the tourney. Robert has had a chance to meet Lyanna at the toruney, and her him. Lyanna can be exposed to rumors about Robert at the tourney, as well, where she picked up on the one about Mya. Ned has a reason to go to Winterfell after the tourney, to carry Robert's acceptance of the betrothal offer back to Rickard. It is likely that the weather prevented Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, and Brandon from leaving Winterfell for some time. After the weather lifts enough for travel, it is likely that Brandon and Ned leave Winterfell together, Ned travelling back to the Eyrie, and Brandon to answer Littlefinger's challenge at Riverrun. Lyanna could have been with the two of them, headed for some other destination, as well.

5. Right and her brothers planned on giving her the crown if they won.

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In our culture, giving flowers is not necessarily a sexual symbol...even on Valentine's day. But stepping past your wife and giving flowers to the prettiest girl in the room on Valentine's day? Will probably get you in trouble.

I'm...pretty sure I never called awarding the wreath a sex act in itself. I said it was a display of romantic, sexual interest. Barristan was certainly interested romantically in Ashara Dayne, as we judge from his thoughts - even if he intended to keep chaste, we can see the romance in his thoughts, and his desire that Ashara know of it, even if he never dared act on it. Though even that's not an absolute impossibility - haven't we heard that Lewyn Martell, one of the Last True KG, had a paramour? And didn't Barristan wistfully think to himself that IF ONLY he had kicked Rhaegar's ass and won that damned tournament and given Ashara the wreath she might have turned looked to HIM instead of Stark (with whom she apparently DID have a sexual relationship?)

That is a distortion, it is not turned to, it is looked to. Corrected it for you. The other is suggesting that Ashara had a sexual relationship with a Stark, when all we have is a suggestion that she looked to Stark (as in house Stark) for something that Barristan wished she had looked to him for. He has just restated his chastity, too. But, this has nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna, and seems an attempt to derail the topic, at least to me.

Elia probably got pregnant soon after the tourney. That necessarily requires sex of some kind, don't you think? Therefore at the time of the tourney Elia was not known to be barren or otherwise reproductively inadequate - and therefore in expressing his romantic interest toward Lyanna at that time, Rhaegar IS NOT sticking to one bed, since he is in a sense making a romantic invitation to another woman in front of his wife while still having conjugal relations with that wife. He cannot know, nor can Lyanna, that Elia will be unfit for further children after the birth of Aegon, since the birth of Aegon is still months in the future.

Therefore in accepting Rhaegar romantically, Lyanna IS accepting a man who displayed interest in the same tomcatting behavior she condemned in Robert. So Lyanna's principles are NOT completely unyielding - which was the only point I wanted to make in bringing up the subject.

Why, MtnLion, you judge me over-hastily. When, in our previous disagreements, have I ever refused to back up my views with textual references? Happily will I back up my "distorted" views with textual references, as soon as you explain what you mean by "distorted" views, or "this."

Why do you insist on saying romantic? Do you not understand that favors can be given and received without romantic interest? Do you not think that Rhaegar intended to honor Lyanna's bravery and skill as the KotLT?

So, do tell me where Lyanna "condemned Robert for behaving like a dog".

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Still the same objection, regardless. Elia was recovered and attending the Tourney. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the wreath - hence publically declaring his romantic interest in her - while Elia was still capable of conjugal relations and pregnancy - and indeed Rhaegar availed himself of that capacity AFTER the tourney. So at the time of the tourney, Rhaegar was expressing interest in a possible lover while maintaining conjugal relations with a wife...that is, NOT keeping to his own bed.

Oh, heavens! Was every award of a crown to the new Miss USA, Miss Universe, etc. always a romantic gesture? :P

Are the judges "publically declaring his romantic interest in her"?

Are they "expressing interest in a possible lover while maintaining conjugal relations with a wife"?

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I think we can all agree that it was something of an asshole move to crown Lyanna over his own wife at a very important tourney. That has no bearing on whether or not Rhaegar married Lyanna or whether or not Elia knew, approved or disapproved of Rhaegar's actions later on.

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I think we can all agree that it was something of an asshole move to crown Lyanna over his own wife at a very important tourney. That has no bearing on whether or not Rhaegar married Lyanna or whether or not Elia knew, approved or disapproved of Rhaegar's actions later on.

Right. I don't think it's the smartest thing Rhaegar has ever done. But I also don't think it was solely motivated by any romantic or sexual desires. And, again, Rhaegar rode right back to Elia and fathered a child with her. We have to wait and see what Elia thought, I guess.

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I think we can all agree that it was something of an asshole move to crown Lyanna over his own wife at a very important tourney. That has no bearing on whether or not Rhaegar married Lyanna or whether or not Elia knew, approved or disapproved of Rhaegar's actions later on.

Thank you and agreed, the"optics" aren't good.

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I looked too, and came up empty for both things. There's a chance he dated the prophecy or the founding of Valyria in one of the videos, I didn't watch all of those. Still unless you can provide a source I'm gonna have to assume you were mistaken, it happens to the best of us. Once I was sure there was a SSM where Martin said he changed his plans to send Daenerys to Asshai, but then couldn't find it for the life of me.

It could be that I was mistaken, but I know that I referred to it several times when I had found it, because it was illuminating. There is another SSM missing, too. It says that Littlefinger had little to do with the rebellion because when winter lifted and Catelyn's betrothal was formally announced, he challenged, and Brandon answered his challenge, leaving him sorely wounded. I wish I could find that one, again, too!

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