R+L=J v. 102

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think we can all agree that it was something of an asshole move to crown Lyanna over his own wife

I've been thinking very hard on this, if it would be me as the odd one out on this. There are two sides to the story, and the reaction "when all smiles died" gives you the truth of it. On the other hand, exactly because of this being out of character for Rhaegar as we see him in Ned's reminiscence, there must be something to it outweighing the slight to Elia and the whole realm.

Right. I don't think it's the smartest thing Rhaegar has ever done.

Hear, hear.

Thank you and agreed, the"optics" aren't good.

All right, all right...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Crowning a QoLaB has nothing to do with romantic intentions, except counted occasions when the Hand of a Lady is "for sale", so to speak. Usually, people crown Princesses or Queens, or the wife of the man hosting the Tourney, because they are the most important ladies there and they want to please their husbands or impress their fathers and win their favours. You're definitely not telling publicly "I so want to fuck this hot woman despite her husband is now staring awkwardly at me".

The scandal when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna was because mostly people should have thought "what the fuck? does he even know her?". Rhaegar doesn't need to impress anyone, he can crown whoever the fuck he wanted because he was the most important man there besides the King. If, for whatever reasons he didn't want to crown Elia, I doubt his actions would have caused the same reaction if he had suddenly chosen Ashara, the most beautiful lady there, and also the sister of a man who was known to be the Prince's best friend, or Lady Whent, daughter of the guy hosting the Tourney. No one would have thought that as Rhaegar having feelings for any of those.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It could be that I was mistaken, but I know that I referred to it several times when I had found it, because it was illuminating. There is another SSM missing, too. It says that Littlefinger had little to do with the rebellion because when winter lifted and Catelyn's betrothal was formally announced, he challenged, and Brandon answered his challenge, leaving him sorely wounded. I wish I could find that one, again, too!

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he'd been born.

AGoT 40 Catelyn VII

...is in the book. Is there need for something more elaborate?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3. It is quite certain (as the story goes thus far) that Ned went from the Eyrie to Harrenhal for the toruney. Before the false spring it was winter, so him travelling to Winterfell and back to the Eyrie before the tourney is much more unlikely than him going to Winterfell after the tourney. Robert has had a chance to meet Lyanna at the toruney, and her him. Lyanna can be exposed to rumors about Robert at the tourney, as well, where she picked up on the one about Mya. Ned has a reason to go to Winterfell after the tourney, to carry Robert's acceptance of the betrothal offer back to Rickard. It is likely that the weather prevented Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, and Brandon from leaving Winterfell for some time. After the weather lifts enough for travel, it is likely that Brandon and Ned leave Winterfell together, Ned travelling back to the Eyrie, and Brandon to answer Littlefinger's challenge at Riverrun. Lyanna could have been with the two of them, headed for some other destination, as well.

5. Right and her brothers planned on giving her the crown if they won.

3. Well, the tourney occurred during "false" spring-weather, but we have no idea how long that had been going on, and how long it would still last. For all we know, the weather had been like that for a few months, and would end a few weeks after the tourney. Currently, though, we can't say that.

But before the False Spring, it would have been winter, as well as after. Making travel in the months before the false spring just as difficult as during those months after.

5. Probably. Why else be her champion? Same goes for Oswell Whent.. He was her fifth champion

[Ygrain]

Crowning a QoLaB has nothing to do with romantic intentions, except counted occasions when the Hand of a Lady is "for sale", so to speak. Usually, people crown Princesses or Queens, or the wife of the man hosting the Tourney, because they are the most important ladies there and they want to please their husbands or impress their fathers and win their favours. You're definitely not telling publicly "I so want to fuck this hot woman despite her husband is now staring awkwardly at me".

The scandal when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna was because mostly people should have thought "what the fuck? does he even know her?". Rhaegar doesn't need to impress anyone, he can crown whoever the fuck he wanted because he was the most important man there besides the King. If, for whatever reasons he didn't want to crown Elia, I doubt his actions would have caused the same reaction if he had suddenly chosen Ashara, the most beautiful lady there, and also the sister of a man who was known to be the Prince's best friend, or Lady Whent, daughter of the guy hosting the Tourney. No one would have thought that as Rhaegar having feelings for any of those.

I would only point out that the HH tourney is inspired by Ivanhoe, and there the crowning of Rowena is a romantic gesture. In-universe, we have Jorah and Lynesse, so while thecrowning is not necessarily always a romantic gesture, it may be used as one.

[BearQueen87]

I would only point out that the HH tourney is inspired by Ivanhoe, and there the crowning of Rowena is a romantic gesture. In-universe, we have Jorah and Lynesse, so while thecrowning is not necessarily always a romantic gesture, it may be used as one.

I agree that crowning of Love and Beauty can be a romantic one; the big difference, with Jorah and Lyenesse, IMO, is that it starts off as a romantic moment. Jorah goes a bit mad by Lynesse's beauty and begs for her favor and while "he fights as well as any man..he has never been a tourney knight." Yet, with Lynesse's favor, no man could stand before him. The story is set up be one of romance. What sets up Rhaegar and Lyanna and HH is not, so far as we know, a romantic interlude, but respect for Lyanna's bravery as the KotLT.

(this is not to say there isn't a small element of sexual desire or romance with R/L and HH, but I don't think it's the primary drive)

[sj4iy]

Well, after the tourney, Elia might simply have thought that Rhaegar was interested in Lyanna as a possible mistress - and as a woman of Dorne, she might be resigned to this as business as usual, since bastards are a respected commonplace there. So it would have been unladylike of her to kick up a fuss about that...especially since she hadn't yet given birth to a son, so her own position was precarious, and she needed to keep relations amicable with Rhaegar so he wouldn't just COMPLETELY set her aside in favor of the healthier-looking Lyanna.

The key words here are "might". She "might" feel this way or that. You don't know. We don't know. We can't make any sort of judgments on how she felt because WE DON'T KNOW. We only know that she and Rhaegar had an arranged marriage, she was frail and was only able to give him two children because a third pregnancy would end in her death, the child's death or both. We know that she was kind, clever and gentle, and that Rhaegar was 'fond' of her. We know that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of blue roses and declared her the queen of love and beauty in front of everyone important. We know Lyanna cried listening to Rhaegar's songs. We know that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. We know that Lyanna died clutching dead rose petals. We know that Rhaegar wanted another child.

Those are the things we 'know'. Without any 'mights' or 'maybes' or 'supposedlys'.

But accepting a discreet mistress and bastard is very different from accepting a second wife with her legitimate children, especially after Elia's given birth to a son.

How does the word 'discreet' apply in this case when the ENTIRE COUNTRY knew what Rhaegar did? That's not 'discreet'. At all. And I don't see how it's easier for a woman to accept a mistress than it is another wife...in both cases, your husband is saying to you "You aren't enough for me". Elia has a son and a daughter. No subsequent children from Elia would usurp her own, male or female, because the Targaryan dynasty runs along the male line. If Aegon died, then yes, Lyanna's son would be next in line. But Rhaenys would never be in line for the throne because she is female, and Viserys would have been next in line after Aegon if there were no Jon. So Lyanna's legitimate children are no more a threat to her own than any bastard children she may have.

A bastard is no threat to her son - a legitimate Stark half-brother definitely is. And the Red Keep is full of Varys' spies, so I really doubt Rhaegar asked and received her permission to beget a legitimate rival for Aegon with Lyanna - he'd be too afraid that either Elia or Varys would mess up his plans. He probably rode off without warning - and after that, it didn't matter what Elia did in protest. She was Aerys' prisoner.

A legitimate son is no threat to her son. Because he's OLDER. And Jon would be Targaryan if he were legitimate, not Stark. No clue what Varys' spies have to do with any of this at all...again, you are interjecting your opinion where we lack facts, and distorting the truth of the matter. Varys has nothing to do with this. In the HotU vision, we see Rhaegar and Elia clearly discussing Aegon's future as prince and Rhaegar stating there has to be another. They have clearly discussed the matter, although we don't know to what extent Rhaegar shared his plans with Elia. But you can't just 'make up' a reason like "Varys would have heard about it if they had talked about it!" simply because you don't like the possibility that Elia may have known about and actually consented to Rhaegar's plan.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I would only point out that the HH tourney is inspired by Ivanhoe, and there the crowning of Rowena is a romantic gesture. In-universe, we have Jorah and Lynesse, so while thecrowning is not necessarily always a romantic gesture, it may be used as one.

Indeed. more than romantic, it's a way to show some "favour" to the crowned lady. Mostly of the time, it's a political move: mostly would crown the wife or daughter of a King, Prince or Lord. Others, would use the chance to make a romantic move. In Rhaegar's case, I think he actually had the intention to acknowledge Lyanna's actions and say he approved of what she did being the KotLT. But he couldn't say more because of Aerys or her family.

OTOH, who is to know that Lyanna was actually happy about this? Maybe she was all "Grrth, eat me please!" because he would have a LOT to explain to his brothers. Maybe, as soon as Rhaegar moved closer to her she was all "what are you doing? go away..." and put a straight face.

[Ygrain]

I agree that crowning of Love and Beauty can be a romantic one; the big difference, with Jorah and Lyenesse, IMO, is that it starts off as a romantic moment. Jorah goes a bit mad by Lynesse's beauty and begs for her favor and while "he fights as well as any man..he has never been a tourney knight." Yet, with Lynesse's favor, no man could stand before him. The story is set up be one of romance. What sets up Rhaegar and Lyanna and HH is not, so far as we know, a romantic interlude, but respect for Lyanna's bravery as the KotLT.

(this is not to say there isn't a small element of sexual desire or romance with R/L and HH, but I don't think it's the primary drive)

Eh... Rhaegar didn't have Lyanna's favour, at least as far as we know, but other than that the bolded applies to Rhaegar, as well. A good fighter but not particularly interested in tourneys, lacking the inner drive to win... and then, suddenly, at HH he becomes unstoppable.

[BearQueen87]

Eh... Rhaegar didn't have Lyanna's favour, at least as far as we know, but other than that the bolded applies to Rhaegar, as well. A good fighter but not particularly interested in tourneys, lacking the inner drive to win... and then, suddenly, at HH he becomes unstoppable.

Yes, but I guess the distinction I'm making is that Jorah was determined to win because he just fell head over heels in love. Rhaegar was determined to win so that he can acknowledge Lyanna as the KotLT, in secret.

Love/Lust vs Respect, is maybe a good way to put it?

[stateofdissipation]

Crowning a QoLaB has nothing to do with romantic intentions, except counted occasions when the Hand of a Lady is "for sale", so to speak. Usually, people crown Princesses or Queens, or the wife of the man hosting the Tourney, because they are the most important ladies there and they want to please their husbands or impress their fathers and win their favours. You're definitely not telling publicly "I so want to fuck this hot woman despite her husband is now staring awkwardly at me".

The scandal when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna was because mostly people should have thought "what the fuck? does he even know her?". Rhaegar doesn't need to impress anyone, he can crown whoever the fuck he wanted because he was the most important man there besides the King. If, for whatever reasons he didn't want to crown Elia, I doubt his actions would have caused the same reaction if he had suddenly chosen Ashara, the most beautiful lady there, and also the sister of a man who was known to be the Prince's best friend, or Lady Whent, daughter of the guy hosting the Tourney. No one would have thought that as Rhaegar having feelings for any of those.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died. When Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish Princess Elia Martell to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses blue as frost.

Ned's Stark's hand reached out to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke trembling in the dark.--aGoT page 608

Notably the passage leaves off "Love"

Rhaegars act of crowning Lyanna over his wife was shocking... regardless of his intent.

In Ned's dream/memory the crown hides sharp and cruel thorns... and Love is absent blood is present.

[Ygrain]

Yes, but I guess the distinction I'm making is that Jorah was determined to win because he just fell head over heels in love. Rhaegar was determined to win so that he can acknowledge Lyanna as the KotLT, in secret.

Love/Lust vs Respect, is maybe a good way to put it?

Are Respect and Love/Lust mutually exclusive? Would Respect give him the inner drive that he had lacked? It's not exactly that we have Rhaegar's confession that it was one and not the other.

[sj4iy]

Well, I think the story is definitely drawing a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar, and how neither of them really won tourneys until they were motivated to do so by love. That was the conclusion I drew from Jorah's story, anyway.

[BearQueen87]

Are Respect and Love/Lust mutually exclusive? Would Respect give him the inner drive that he had lacked? It's not exactly that we have Rhaegar's confession that it was one and not the other.

No they aren't mutually exclusive and like I said up thread: "this is not to say there isn't a small element of sexual desire or romance with R/L at HH, but I don't think it's the primary drive."

I'm trying to say that the main drive behind each incident is different. Rhaegar may have found Lyanna attractive and been drawn to her on a romantic level, but the main motivation behind her crowning wasn't the same as Jorah's, which was purely one of lust, not because Jorah had learned that Lyneese went against convention and did a heroic and noble deed.

Later that night, Jorah goes and begs for Lynesse's hand. Rhaegar goes back to his wife. Now while I do think that R and L began communicating sometime after HH, I think love (the kind Rhaegar has as he dies on the Trident) came in later.

Well, I think the story is definitely drawing a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar, and how neither of them really won tourneys until they were motivated to do so by love. That was the conclusion I drew from Jorah's story, anyway.

I agree that they are parallel stories, but not perfectly so. The big difference, IMO, is the women involved in each and why the man felt the need to crown her. Yes, there might be some infatuation/love but I think R's main intent wasn't sudden love.

[stateofdissipation]

Well, I think the story is definitely drawing a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar, and how neither of them really won tourneys until they were motivated to do so by love. That was the conclusion I drew from Jorah's story, anyway.

and how winning ruined them...

Jorah attempted to reproduce the lifestyle his wife was accustomed to by lavishing her with expensive gifts, but only succeeded in driving himself into financial ruin. Desperate to pay off his debts, Jorah resorted to participating in the slave trade prompting Ned to sentence him to die.

Rhaegar actions for Lyanna triggered Robert's rebellion that resulted in Rhaegar's death.

[BearQueen87]

and how winning ruined them...

Jorah attempted to reproduce the lifestyle his wife was accustomed to by lavishing her with expensive gifts, but only succeeded in driving himself into financial ruin. Desperate to pay off his debts, Jorah resorted to participating in the slave trade prompting Ned to sentence him to die.

Rhaegar actions for Lyanna triggered Robert's rebellion that resulted in Rhaegar's death.

1) I don't know that Jorah would agree with you about "ruining" him (but that's not relevant to this...)

2) Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna was certainly a watershed moment, but it's the sole cause of the Rebellion.

[sj4iy]

I agree that they are parallel stories, but not perfectly so. The big difference, IMO, is the women involved in each and why the man felt the need to crown her. Yes, there might be some infatuation/love but I think R's main intent wasn't sudden love.

Honestly, I don't think we can make any judgments about whether Rhaegar did or didn't fall head over heels in love with Lyanna based on the information we have. But I meant that the author tells us Jorah's tourney story so that we make the connection with Rhaegar's tourney and fill in some blanks.

[lareine]

Well, something I've been saying for a long time now is that Elia knew what was going on, that Rhaegar explained everything either before or after. Elia is so silent thus far that I think there's more to her story. That may resolve some of the morality issues.

[BearQueen87]

Honestly, I don't think we can make any judgments about whether Rhaegar did or didn't fall head over heels in love with Lyanna based on the information we have. But I meant that the author tells us Jorah's tourney story so that we make the connection with Rhaegar's tourney and fill in some blanks.

True, but he also told us the KotLT story.

It could be that R fell in love with L once he discovered her as the KoLT and the love was born out of deep respect for her deeds that day; but as far as crowning L that day goes, I think it has a lot to do with R saying, "I know what yo did. I approve. I think it's pretty great seeing as I'm currently trying to figure out a way to get my father off the throne...so rock on."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

He got you suscribing to Valyria having nobles from:

The Snowfyre Chorus

Agreed. As I said in response to J. Stargaryen, I don't think "Valyrian Noble" goes far enough. For one thing, Valyrian Nobles were almost certainly either male or female. Whereas dragons, according to Aemon, are "neither male nor female... but now one and now the other."

He got the Valyrians did not have nobles from

The Freehold of Valyria is correct. Valyria at the zenith of its power was neither a kingdom nor an empire... or at least it had neither a king nor an emperor. It was more akin to the old Roman Republic, I suppose. In theory, the franchise included all "free holders," that is freeborn landowners. Of course in practice wealthy, highborn, and sorcerously powerful families came to dominate.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2999/

Ah, I see. At least, I think I see. Let's see... :idea:

You say that you believe that the scroll said "Dragon" instead of "Prince". It doesn't make sense if it is a Valyrian translation, since Vayria had no princes or kings. The scroll indeed points to royalty, not a creature. Also, the Woods Witch verified that it is a male, in my opinion, and it will stay firmly that way.

So far, nobody in the conversation has spoken Valyrian. You and I are corresponding in English. Maester Aemon spoke of this prophecy in the Common Tongue. George Martin recounts that speech to us in English. So I would not assume that the word "prince" was included in a Valyrian translation. More likely, the Valyrian translation itself used the word dragon... and then 2 things happened to confuse the issue:

1. the Valyrian word for "dragon" was a gendered noun (masculine); and

the word "dragon" was used as a metonym for the Valyrian dragonlords themselves

Under those conditions, for Valyrians, the word dragon would have been a term associated with politically powerful families and individuals - particularly men. And we see this with the Targaryens, once they come to Westeros. By the time Dunk and Egg are traipsing around, once the actual dragons have died off, the only practical use of the word dragon is this one, where it becomes nearly synonymous Targaryen prince:

From Mystery Knight:

Spoiler

"And who are you to tell the King's Hand what to do?"

Egg did not flinch. "You know who I am, cousin."

"Your squire is insolent, ser," Lord Rivers said to Dunk. "You ought to beat that out of him."

"I've tried, m’lord. He's a prince, though."

"What he is," said Bloodraven, “Is a dragon..."

The phrase "Valyrian noble" was J. Stargaryen's suggestion for an acceptable phrase that would (1) replace the word "prince;" and (2) allow for Maester Aemon's decision that the word "princess" would work just as well. It was not my suggestion, and I don't think it works. Martin's emphasis on the republican nature of the Valyrian Freehold (and the absence of kings and emperors) might well support my point. But the primary reason "Valyrian noble" doesn't work is that Aemon's revelation is based on observations of dragon biology (or dragon gender identity). It's not a revelation based solely on issues of grammatical gender.

“No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.... What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." (4.35, SAMWELL)

Aemon sees that "the language misled" scholars into making unfounded translational assumptions about gender. But the reason those assumptions are wrong is because dragons are "neither male nor female."

I do think Aemon draws the wrong conclusion in the end. Or, rather, that he doesn't quite reach the full implications of his own reasoning. It's not that Dany couldn't be "the dragon that was promised" - she definitely could. It's that the prophecy isn't necessarily referring to a human at all - and the choices for interpretation are not limited to only (a) Prince of Targaryen blood; or (b ) Princess of Targaryen blood. It is equally possible that the prophecy will be fulfilled by an actual dragon - with great leathery wings, scales, and breath of flame. That's not a conclusion that Aemon (or Rhaegar) would have anticipated years ago, when everyone knew that the dragons were dead. But it is absolutely a possibility in this story, now that magic (and dragons themselves) have returned to the world.

In the end, I like to think that Aemon would have arrived at something close to this conclusion himself, had he lived long enough to see the dragons, and to hear Dany's story. Because, as he says himself, "the dragons prove it." What he might not have understood - in part, because I'm not sure I myself understand the process - is the idea that the Dragon that was Promised may have been Rhaego.