R+L=J v. 102

[mambru]

The key words here are "might". She "might" feel this way or that. You don't know. We don't know. We can't make any sort of judgments on how she felt because WE DON'T KNOW.

Of course we don't know what she felt. If we knew everything about all the unknowns we always argue about on these boards, what would be the point of discussing any of it? All I'm doing is speculating on the facts that we DO know.

And one of those facts is that at the time of the tourney, Elia had not yet given Rhaegar that all-important male heir. It's her mission as wife and she hasn't yet fulfilled it. I therefore speculate that Elia may not have wanted to rock the boat by recriminating Rhaegar for his rudeness at the tourney. If she's too openly bitter, she may dissolve whatever goodwill and interest he still has in her, and thus she will never have the male heir, and may be set aside (or worse. Look what happened to the wives of Henry VIII). IMO, this is a possible explanation for her silence. And it seems more likely to me than to speculate that Elia gave Rhaegar permission to romance another girl at the tourney when her own position as wife is precarious.

And I don't see how it's easier for a woman to accept a mistress than it is another wife...in both cases, your husband is saying to you "You aren't enough for me".

It's not about whether Elia's feelings are hurt by her husband's indifference - I totally agree that we don't know if she feels any more for Rhaegar than tolerance. Elia's worry would be for her children...and you surely would not dispute that she loved them, would you? (She fought The Mountain "like a tiger" for Aegon's life, if you need proof).

If Aegon died, then yes, Lyanna's son would be next in line, But Rhaenys would never be in line for the throne because she is female, and Viserys would have been next in line after Aegon if there were no Jon. So Lyanna's legitimate children are no more a threat to her own than any bastard children she may have....A legitimate son is no threat to her son. Because he's OLDER.

Siblings and half-siblings have fought bloodily throughout Westeros history. It would be worse for Aegon to have a legitimate half-brother who is one step behind him in the succession, who has a powerful and ambitious Stark grandfather with equally powerful allies by betrothal to back him up in case he decides to go to war with Aegon over the throne, or just have him assassinated.

If Aegon's half brother is legitimate, all it would take would be the engineering of one death for the king of Westeros to be half-Stark instead of half-Martell. Hence the danger to Aegon.

Whereas if Aegon's half-brother is a bastard, ambitious Lord Rickard Stark would have to defeat by war or murder the entire legitimate line before his bastard grandson would have any claim. No matter how ambitious Rickard is or Jon might turn out to be, I think that task would daunt him.

So, purely out of concern for the safety of her children, I think I have sufficient facts to theorize that Elia would probably prefer that Rhaegar have a mistress and a bastard instead of a second wife and a legitimate son. So I really don't think it's likely she gave Rhaegar permission to elope and have a honeymoon while she and the kids stay in dangerous lunatic Aerys' hands for six months.

No clue what Varys' spies have to do with any of this at all...

Isn't it a fact that the Red Keep is honeycombed with tunnels, and that any important conversation that takes place indoors will likely be overheard by Varys' little birds? No one with any powers of observation who lives there long can be unaware of it. And it's a fact that Varys is Rhaegar's political enemy...he accused Rhaegar of conspiring against his father to overthrow him at Harrenhal. If there was any truth in it, Varys foiled that important plan.

Therefore I speculate that Rhaegar wouldn't be likely to allow Varys to spoil his Even More Important Plan To Knock Up Lyanna and Save the World by discussing it with Elia (who's just given birth after horrendously complicated labor, and therefore CAN'T go out for a stroll) in the palace, where Varys' agents are likely to overhear him and tell Aerys. Why would he endanger his plan for the sake of getting permission from a woman he's only ever felt a mild fondness for? He's arranged his whole life around this prophecy, he's convinced he needs to run away with his beloved to save the world - is he really going to stop if Elia says, "Please don't?" Therefore, I speculate that it's likelier he walked out of the Red Keep without discussing his plans with her or anybody.

we see Rhaegar and Elia clearly discussing Aegon's future as prince and Rhaegar stating there has to be another. They have clearly discussed the matter, although we don't know to what extent Rhaegar shared his plans with Elia.

Now that's your speculation. Which is fine, but it's important to recognize when you do it. We saw Rhaegar calling Aegon the PTWP...and he's been obsessed with that since childhood. And when he said "there must be another" he wasn't even talking directly to Elia, he was staring abstractedly in another direction (where his future unborn niece was watching). He may well have been muttering to himself. And we never saw Elia's reaction to what he said. To conclude from that one phrase that he's already discussed with Elia during her difficult pregnancy that if she can't have any more children he plans to run away and take a Lord Paramount's daughter (who's betrothed to another Lord Paramount) as a second wife and have a long honeymoon while Elia and her kids stay in Mad Aerys' custody - and that Elia approves of this - is speculation. And IMO, it's damned unlikely.

But you can't just 'make up' a reason like "Varys would have heard about it if they had talked about it!" simply because you don't like the possibility that Elia may have known about and actually consented to Rhaegar's plan.

Did I 'make up' the tunnels and Varys' birds? I didn't 'make up' the fact that Varys accused Rhaegar of plotting against Aerys. So IMO, it's not a huge stretch to say that Rhaegar would probably not have wanted to discuss his plans where Varys could overhear and foil them (again). Nor have I 'made up' the fact that Rhaegar chose to leave his wife and children in the hands of his dangerous, paranoid, unreasonable father, instead of suggesting they take a nice trip to Dorne to visit the in-laws before he ran off with Lyanna. Do you think that Elia was okay with that?

How likely is it that Elia said, "Why yes, go off and marry the betrothed girl and have another set of heirs just behind Aegon...take as much time as you need. Why no, there's no need for me to go to visit Dorne to be out of the way when things get complicated...the children and I will be fine with your smelly, pyromaniac, paranoid father who sees conspiracies in every shadow and has absolute power over us. Run along and have fun." I think it's unlikely - and I've enumerated actual reasons for thinking so beyond just not liking the possibility.

[RumHam]

I've heard about this, but am sort of confused. It's a children's story he did, right? But not considered a compliment to canon?

ETA: Bran's totally gonna ride an ice dragon.... :)

There's some promotional material that calls it canon, but that's about it. I think if it's gonna end up being canon at all it would be like a story Old Nan would tell. I also don't rule out the idea of an ice dragon to balance out the Valyrian fire dragons. Ice and Blood!

[Alia of the knife]

I've heard about this, but am sort of confused. It's a children's story he did, right? But not considered a compliment to canon?

ETA: Bran's totally gonna ride an ice dragon.... :)

It is a children's story, but more in the tradition of vintage Grimm.

Not necessarily Canon to current Westeros, but it does highlight this unique creation. :)

If you get this, it is a short read but grab the Kleenex.

[BearQueen87]

Randomly flipping through ACOK and came across Jon III. Found this quote from Craster that made me take pause; just thought I'd leave it here for the on-going "were they married" debate.

A bastard, is it?” Craster looked Jon up and down. “Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That’s what I do.”

Everyone seems to acknowledge that Craster is one twisted individual. But, even this twisted man who sleeps with his daughters seems to know that bedding a woman requires that you marry her first. Do we really think that Rhaegar was less honorable than Craster?

[sj4iy]

Randomly flipping through ACOK and came across Jon III. Found this quote from Craster that made me take pause; just thought I'd leave it here for the on-going "were they married" debate.

Everyone seems to acknowledge that Craster is one twisted individual. But, even this twisted man who sleeps with his daughters seems to know that bedding a woman requires that you marry her first. Do we really think that Rhaegar was less honorable than Craster?

To me, the story doesn't make perfect sense unless you read it thinking Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The raven, the foreshadowing, the ambiguity of the language...once you read it keeping all of that in mind, it makes absolute sense.

[RumHam]

Randomly flipping through ACOK and came across Jon III. Found this quote from Craster that made me take pause; just thought I'd leave it here for the on-going "were they married" debate.

Everyone seems to acknowledge that Craster is one twisted individual. But, even this twisted man who sleeps with his daughters seems to know that bedding a woman requires that you marry her first. Do we really think that Rhaegar was less honorable than Craster?

I don't want to get into an argument about if they were married or not, but that's a horrible comparison. Like something out of a political campaign ad. The guy has sex with his daughters, and they don't get a say in the matter. How can you compare that to fathering a bastard?

[BearQueen87]

I don't want to get into an argument about if they were married or not, but that's a horrible comparison. Like something out of a political campaign ad. The guy has sex with his daughters, and they don't get a say in the matter. How can you compare that to fathering a bastard?

I'm not saying Craster isn't a terrible person, of course he is. But even someone who is an incredibly terrible person seems to know that you marry a woman before you bed her; that's his own sense of honor: I will sleep with my daughters, but it's important to marry them first. Rhaegar has waaaaaaaaaay more honor than Craster. So do we think that noble, honorable Rhaegar would not have married Lyanna first, before bedding her.

I'm not trying to compare Craster and Rhaegar necessarily, but rather the idea of honor: you wed the girl before you bed her.

edit: took out something because it was a bit repetitive

[mambru]

I'm not saying Craster isn't a terrible person, of course he is. But even someone who is an incredibly terrible person seems to know that you marry a woman before you bed her; that's his own sense of honor: I will sleep with my daughters, but it's important to marry them first. Rhaegar has waaaaaaaaaay more honor than Craster. So do we think that noble, honorable Rhaegar would not have married Lyanna first, before bedding her.

I'm not trying to compare Craster and Rhaegar necessarily, but rather the idea of honor: you wed the girl before you bed her.

I guess overall what I'm saying is this:

Craster = no honor and terrible person but still marries women before he beds them

Rhaegar = by accounts an honorable and not terrible person. Why would he NOT marry Lyanna before bedding her.

Maybe because actual honor resides in allowing a woman some choice in the matter, regardless of whether you're talking about marriage or sex? Craster allows his daughters no choice in either the marriage or the sex. There is no honor in forcing either.

You're basically assuming that Lyanna's default choice is automatically that she must want to be married and be the Ladylike Co-Queen in KL, minding her etiquette every second forever after - and that therefore Rhaegar would be automatically dishonorable if he didn't marry her and bring her to that blessed state - regardless of how that state doesn't seem to jibe with what Lyanna as we know her would actually WANT for her life.

Why is it impossible to imagine that maybe Lyanna really wanted sex, love AND freedom - freedom that she would not have if she were a married woman, Westerosi style, in a court under constant criticism and scrutiny? Why would it be so dishonorable for Rhaegar to sincerely agree to a relationship on those terms?

I just can't see how it is by any stretch MORE honorable for Craster to force marriage along with sex on his unwilling daughters than for two people to agree to be lovers by mutual free choice. How is Craster an authority on what is honorable? And I agree with RumHam that the comparison itself is weird.

[Ygrain]

Also, the reason that Alys ran, wasn't it to save her birthright, which is why she ran from one marriage and got into another one? I honestly don't remember.

To protect her birthright and avoid the marriage. And to do so, she turned to a person of high authority whom she had met at a social occasion :D

Alys who, reminds of Arya who looks like Lyanna.

I'm not trying to compare Craster and Rhaegar necessarily, but rather the idea of honor: you wed the girl before you bed her.

That's an idea I followed, as well.

[Kingmonkey]

One thing that kind of bothers me about Jon=TPTWP etc. and the whole sword business, is that while Jon is obviously a pretty decent swordsman, it's not his stand-out feature. We've been shown several times that while he's considerably better than average, he just can't stand up to the real hard nuts.

On the other hand, he seems to be shaping up to be one hell of a diplomat. He's juggling Night's Watch, wildlings and Queen's men, dealing with extremely strong-minded individuals such as Mance, Stannis and Melissande, and he was voted Lord Commander by popular acclaim, all at a ridiculously young age.

He's had his problems for sure, some of them quite sharp and pointy, but he's somehow managed to broker an uneasy peace between NW and wildlings and even got wildlings, despite all their antipathy towards the crows, going ranging for him.

Age-old enemies from either side of the wall coming together to work out a (somewhat uneasy) peace, and he's the glue. Could this be more of a hint about the way he'll deal with the Others than any sword stuff?

While I'm at it -- running a bit off topic, but the passage is right there and I've been meaning to ask this for ages:

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up ... how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth ... air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest ... you do not know, you cannot know ... can your sword cut cold?”

Is it just me, or did anyone else find the writing of Jon's stabbing oddly echoing this passage?

white mist rising up / smoking wound

shadows with teeth / black cloaked NW with daggers

air so cold it hurts / didn't feel the fourth dagger, only the cold,

knife inside your chest / between the shoulder blades

can your sword cut cold / somehow he could not seem to get his sword free?

[Anath]

And one of those facts is that at the time of the tourney, Elia had not yet given Rhaegar that all-important male heir. It's her mission as wife and she hasn't yet fulfilled it. I therefore speculate that Elia may not have wanted to rock the boat by recriminating Rhaegar for his rudeness at the tourney. If she's too openly bitter, she may dissolve whatever goodwill and interest he still has in her, and thus she will never have the male heir, and may be set aside (or worse. Look what happened to the wives of Henry VIII). IMO, this is a possible explanation for her silence. And it seems more likely to me than to speculate that Elia gave Rhaegar permission to romance another girl at the tourney when her own position as wife is precarious.

Mambru, don't forget that we don't know Elia was silent. That's just wishful thinking on the part of those who wish she was, so they can say, "See? She was OK with it! Rhaegar did nothing wrong!"

We don't have the PoV of anyone who was in position to know. Oberyn didn't have his own PoV and neither did Doran. We don't have Ashara Dayne or a handmaiden of Elia's say that she was totally cool with that. Not every woman was like, "The whole world has to see how I feel!" Elia might have thrown a fit, who knows? Just in private.

I've pointed the case of Juana of Castile before. One of the reasons she was considered mad were her jealous fits in public. Elia's public stance (that we also don't know anything about, by the way. No one speaking about what happened after Rhaegar valiantly passed her over and all smiles died) isn't equal to "she did nothing". Even if she was silent then (I believe she was since it was a matter of dignity), we don't know anything about her behavior to Rhaegar in private.

[Lord Varys]

The promised princess (and Azor Ahai, if they are truly supposed to be one and the same, as some people seem to believe) is clearly Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen:

- She was born on Dragonstone, 'the place of smoke and salt' (which may also have been the birthplace of Prince Aegon). A terrible storm heralded her birth.

- She woke three dragons from stone, a feature the promised prince/Azor Ahai is supposed to do, according to Melisandre.

- A red comet - the 'bleeding star' showed the world that Azor Ahai had come again into the world.

The last thing is somewhat tricky, since she was not born under a comet, but rather reborn under it as Azor Ahai. But that would really fit with GRRM's focus how choices and decisions figure into prophetic stuff. Dany made a series of decisions throughout AGoT which led to her becoming Azor Ahai, and later we see another series of decisions in ASoS and ADwD which make it appear that she about to abandon her destiny - until we meet her again in her last ADwD chapter.

I'm also inclined to believe that 'Lightbringer' is indeed a metaphor for dragons rather than some sort of super weapons. We know that the Azor Ahai story comes from the East - and R'hllorism originated apparently in distant Asshai - so we should not really expect that those cultural traditions did have deep insights into historical Azor Ahai (if this savior guy was the Last Hero who fought the Others during the War for the Dawn), nor should we expect that their seers and prophets did accurately foresee what the reborn hero is supposed to do.

We clearly see that people like Benerro do not mention the Others or the Wall at all. They incorporate the prophesied savior into their own religious belief system - just as Mel did before him.

The seers and prophets may have gotten certain basics right - waking dragons from stone, the bleeding star, the place of smoke and salt. But that would be it. Lightbringer was a feature of the historical Azor Ahai, it was never mentioned as a feature for the reborn version of the hero, and could thus be just an invention of some story-tellers, or - much more likely - a twisted version of the dragons who played a role in the fight of the original hero.

As far as we know, the War for the Dawn occurred before the rise of Valyria, and thus it is not very likely that the dragon-binding rituals of the Valyrians were already in use during the Long Night. But the origin of the 'Azor Ahai forges Lightbringer' story could actually be a corrupted version of the tale of the actual hero hatching one (or three) dragon egg(s) in a blood magic ritual...

It is very unlikely that the dragons did not play a role during the War for the Dawn, and whatever magic was used to wake (and bind) the dragons to the hero could also eventually have led to the rise of the Valyrian dragonlords - if we assume that peoples from all over the world were involved in the War for the Dawn in one way or another. The Long Night supposedly lasted for a generation - if it occurred all over the world, then people everywhere would have been afraid, and some people - those with magical abilities and prophetic insights - might have realized that the source of the events was in the far west, and they may have traveled there to help to put an end to the long cold...

The idea that an actual magical sword is going to defeat the Others is ridiculous if you ask me. And we should also always keep in mind that whatever the Last Hero did thousands of years ago did not actually defeat the Others. They still were afraid enough to build a pretty big Wall to keep them out, suggesting that they were not exactly sure that they had 'won'. The Others may have suffered a defeat, but perhaps something else happened...?

[stateofdissipation]

Dany's ideas on this are complicated for a few reasons.

Whatever she's heard she's gotten from Viserys, who didn't know the whole story and who wasn't exactly fond of wooing women. Also, anything she heard from Jorah would be the common story in Westeros (and winners tell the stories, not the loser who died on the Tridnet)

I'm pretty sure you're missing the next part of Dany's sentence which is that this idea of hers is silly/ridiculous

If he(Daario) loved you, he would come carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar had carried off his northern girl--Dany aDwD page 672

the girl in her insisted, but the queen in her knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it. The Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.--The remainder of the paragraph page 672

Dany used Rhaegar carrying off Lyanna as part of a simile. The simile was the original quote. The remainder of the sentence and Dany's thouhts of Daario and the Brazen Beasts or the practicality of her thought... have little bearing on Rhaegar or R plus L equals J.

I should write a book like GRRM wrote a book, the child in me insists. the adult in me knows that is folly.

In this sentence GRRM writing a book is a fact... the rest is my idea or judgment.

In the example I used what Dany inserted into her ideas and judgments as a fact..

We have two sources, Robert and Dany, that hold the view that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint.

To counter it we have...

The dragon prince played a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle,--aSoS SS page 340

The assertion includes Lyanna running away from an arranged marriage... which GRRM states did not happen historically. GRRM also states that he tried to reflect the realities of the time.

Lyanna's reaction to or feelings about her abduction are not given.. It may well have been "whatever you do please don't throw me into the briar patch." Lyanna's reaction is not given, the abduction is given by two sources and confirmed by GRRM. Lyanna enjoying her abduction does not make the abduction go away.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

<snp>

We have two sources, Robert and Dany, that hold the view that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint.

<snp>

The assertion includes Lyanna running away from an arranged marriage... which GRRM states did not happen historically. GRRM also states that he tried to reflect the realities of the time.

<snp>

We have two sources, yes, and neither one of them was there, nor spoke with Lyanna after she disappeared, or even knew her that well..

GRRM stated that the rich girl didn't run of with the stableboy, historically. He never spoke about a girl fleeing from a marriage. We've seen that happen, in the novels, already, with Alys Karstark.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Randomly flipping through ACOK and came across Jon III. Found this quote from Craster that made me take pause; just thought I'd leave it here for the on-going "were they married" debate.

Everyone seems to acknowledge that Craster is one twisted individual. But, even this twisted man who sleeps with his daughters seems to know that bedding a woman requires that you marry her first. Do we really think that Rhaegar was less honorable than Craster?

I'm not sure the marriage and family practices of Craster's Keep are the template you're looking for. Though they might be. As you point out, Craster does say this:

"A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." (2.23, JON)

Gilly's take on the arrangement, however, suggests something different. First she offers to be Sam's wife, "like [she] was Craster's:"

Gilly was crying. "Me and the babe. Please. I'll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He's a boy, just like Nella said he'd be. If you don't take him, they will." (3.33, SAMWELL)

Later, aboard the Cinnamon Wind, this is how she makes good on that offer:

Gilly pushed him back onto her pallet, hiked her skirts up around her thighs, and lowered herself onto him with a little whimpery sound... "I am your wife now," she whispered, sliding up and down on him. And Sam groaned and thought, No, no, you can't be, I said the words, I said the words, but the only word he said was, "Yes." (4.35, SAMWELL)

So...

I'm not saying Craster isn't a terrible person, of course he is. But even someone who is an incredibly terrible person seems to know that you marry a woman before you bed her; that's his own sense of honor: I will sleep with my daughters, but it's important to marry them first. Rhaegar has waaaaaaaaaay more honor than Craster. So do we think that noble, honorable Rhaegar would not have married Lyanna first, before bedding her.

I'm not trying to compare Craster and Rhaegar necessarily, but rather the idea of honor: you wed the girl before you bed her.

edit: took out something because it was a bit repetitive

...I'm not sure that Craster would make quite the distinction between wedding and bedding that you draw here. But that's not to say that suggesting a parallel with the Rhaegar + Lyanna situation would be inappropriate. It's entirely possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in this fashion.

[sj4iy]

The promised princess (and Azor Ahai, if they are truly supposed to be one and the same, as some people seem to believe) is clearly Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen

Oh, it's clear now, is it?

- She was born on Dragonstone, 'the place of smoke and salt' (which may also have been the birthplace of Prince Aegon). A terrible storm heralded her birth.

There's never any mention of being born on the PLACE of smoke and salt...it simply says born amidst smoke and salt. We have many people that fit this broad definition.

- She woke three dragons from stone, a feature the promised prince/Azor Ahai is supposed to do, according to Melisandre.

Melisandre doesn't say this until book 5. Before that, she said that AAR will pull a burning sword from a fire and he who clasps it shall be AA come again. Amazing how Melisandre doesn't see Dany in her vision when she's looking for AAR. You'd think she would...but she sees Jon Snow instead. Why would that be, if she's clearly AAR?

- A red comet - the 'bleeding star' showed the world that Azor Ahai had come again into the world.

Dany purposely used the comet as a sign to hold the pyre. It didn't herald anything...she saw it in the sky and thought it was a sign.

The last thing is somewhat tricky, since she was not born under a comet, but rather reborn under it as Azor Ahai. But that would really fit with GRRM's focus how choices and decisions figure into prophetic stuff. Dany made a series of decisions throughout AGoT which led to her becoming Azor Ahai, and later we see another series of decisions in ASoS and ADwD which make it appear that she about to abandon her destiny - until we meet her again in her last ADwD chapter.

...and in ADWD, Martin started throwing a bunch of clues at us that Jon is AAR. Why?

I'm also inclined to believe that 'Lightbringer' is indeed a metaphor for dragons rather than some sort of super weapons. We know that the Azor Ahai story comes from the East - and R'hllorism originated apparently in distant Asshai - so we should not really expect that those cultural traditions did have deep insights into historical Azor Ahai (if this savior guy was the Last Hero who fought the Others during the War for the Dawn), nor should we expect that their seers and prophets did accurately foresee what the reborn hero is supposed to do.

I don't see what traditions or cultural understanding has to do with anything. If a seer sees a dragon in the vision, they will describe it as a dragon. If a seer sees a sword in the vision, they will describe it as a sword. They wouldn't say a dragon is a sword.

We clearly see that people like Benerro do not mention the Others or the Wall at all. They incorporate the prophesied savior into their own religious belief system - just as Mel did before him.

And we clearly see that Melisandre doesn't see Dany or her dragons in her visions, but she has seen the Wall.

The seers and prophets may have gotten certain basics right - waking dragons from stone, the bleeding star, the place of smoke and salt. But that would be it. Lightbringer was a feature of the historical Azor Ahai, it was never mentioned as a feature for the reborn version of the hero, and could thus be just an invention of some story-tellers, or - much more likely - a twisted version of the dragons who played a role in the fight of the original hero.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Isn't it more likely that dragon fire, a magical type of fire that comes in various colors, would make more of a difference than one man with a sword that can "cut cold?" By the way we do know that Dragonglass and "Dragonsteel" (Which I take to be Valyrian steel, swords forged in dragonflame) can kill the others. So yes, Jon's sword should be able to "cut cold." But still can one man make a difference with one sword? Dragons on the other hand can be a force multiplier.

The accounts of the Long Night that Sam relates to Jon seem to indicate that he can:

“I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

We know from Old Nan's stories that the Last Hero prevailed over the Others with the help of the CotF.

Moving into prophecy, we have this from Mel:

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

And of course, we have Sallador Saan's account of the forging of Lightbringer by the original Azor Ahai.

All of which seem to indicate an actual blade.

Randomly flipping through ACOK and came across Jon III. Found this quote from Craster that made me take pause; just thought I'd leave it here for the on-going "were they married" debate.

Everyone seems to acknowledge that Craster is one twisted individual. But, even this twisted man who sleeps with his daughters seems to know that bedding a woman requires that you marry her first. Do we really think that Rhaegar was less honorable than Craster?

I think it's likely that this is one of those cleverly hidden clues... Yeah Rhaegar is nothing like Craster, nor should we compare wildling practices to Westerosi ones. But Craster is speaking to Jon about his parentage there, so it's not really about a comparison but an ironic hint that Jon's parents were indeed married ;)

It is a children's story, but more in the tradition of vintage Grimm.

Not necessarily Canon to current Westeros, but it does highlight this unique creation. :)

If you get this, it is a short read but grab the Kleenex.

Love that story! It actually started as a short story with much more adult elements in the 70s, but was revised to be a children's novella in 1980. It's been out of print off and on since, with a new lavishly illustrated edition due on October 21 of this year. Even though I already own it, I'll be purchasing the new edition for the gorgeous artwork :)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The seers and prophets may have gotten certain basics right - waking dragons from stone, the bleeding star, the place of smoke and salt. But that would be it. Lightbringer was a feature of the historical Azor Ahai, it was never mentioned as a feature for the reborn version of the hero, and could thus be just an invention of some story-tellers, or - much more likely - a twisted version of the dragons who played a role in the fight of the original hero.

The very first mention of Lightbringer is when Mel identifies it as a sign that AA is reborn:

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him... Azor Ahai, beloved of R’hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!" (2.10, DAVOS)

(ETA: :ninja: 'd by sj4iy...)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

We have two sources, Robert and Dany

Robert - as @Rhaenys_Targaryen says ... Dany was not even born until 2 years after the abduction/eloping and 8-9 months after Lyanna & Rhaegar's deaths.

[stateofdissipation]

We have two sources, yes, and neither one of them was there, nor spoke with Lyanna after she disappeared, or even knew her that well..

GRRM stated that the rich girl didn't run of with the stableboy, historically. He never spoke about a girl fleeing from a marriage. We've seen that happen, in the novels, already, with Alys Karstark.

We have two sources, yes, and neither one of them was there, nor spoke with Lyanna after she disappeared, or even knew her that well..

Correct, they were not there. Neither was anybody else. All parties to the abduction are deceased.

GRRM stated that the rich girl didn't run of with the stableboy, historically.

NO...GRRM stated that historical fiction and television have the girl running away from an arranged marriage.

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead.

GRRM stated that you constantly see the girl running off with the stable boy over an arranged marriage in historical fiction and television.

He continues to discredit that trope.

This never fucking happened. It just didn’t.

He spells out what did happen historically.

There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.

He finishes the topic referring back to both the trope and its improbability.

Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

He never spoke about a girl fleeing from a marriage.

Correct.

There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.

GRRM stated that arranged marriage was not questioned.

We've seen that happen, in the novels, already, with Alys Karstark.

Alys Karstark was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood... as we find in aDwD chapter 44.

We already knew that Daryn Hornwood had been killed in the battle of whispering wood from aGoT chapter 63

Alys father is killed by Robb in aSoS chapter 20

Alys Brother Harry is the Lord of Karhold is a captive at maidenpool from aFfC appendix.

Arnolf Karstark, Rickard's brother, declares for Stannis, hoping that the Iron Throne will execute Harry leaving Alys as the heir to Karhold. He plans to marry his son to Alys to his son Cregan and claim Karhold.

Alys did not run away from her betrothed, he was killed. She did not run away from her Lord brother, he was captive.

Alys did not run away from an arranged marriage any more than Sansa did.