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R+L=J v. 102


RumHam

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I think it's likely that this is one of those cleverly hidden clues... Yeah Rhaegar is nothing like Craster, nor should we compare wildling practices to Westerosi ones. But Craster is speaking to Jon about his parentage there, so it's not really about a comparison but an ironic hint that Jon's parents were indeed married ;)

I agree with you that Craster is speaking about Jon's parentage. But I think the message is something rather different - it's much more likely an indictment of Jon's father for having abandoned his mother. Which is a rather incisive critique, if we believe that Rhaegar is Jon's biological father.

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I agree with you that Craster is speaking about Jon's parentage. But I think the message is something rather different - it's much more likely an indictment of Jon's father for having abandoned his mother. Which is a rather incisive critique, if we believe that Rhaegar is Jon's biological father.

Well that's what it appears to be, taken at face value. But taken in the vein of lines like "whoever his mother was she had left nothing of herself in her son" and "bastards must not damage young princes" it certainly could be something more ;)

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Well that's what it appears to be, taken at face value. But taken in the vein of lines like "whoever his mother was she had left nothing of herself in her son" and "bastards must not damage young princes" it certainly could be something more ;)

Agreed. It sounds a lot like foreshadowing. Especially when you think about the fact that Craster has met many bastards in the NW...why make a comment SPECIFICALLY about Jon Snow? ...unless it was a hint.

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Robert - as @Rhaenys_Targaryen says ... Dany was not even born until 2 years after the abduction/eloping and 8-9 months after Rhargar & Lyanna's deaths.

Robert, who repeated his story in front of Ned and was not corrected... Ned who supports the assertion by saying "you avenged Lyanna on the Trident."--aGoT page 110.--- not to overstate the case this may in fact be a lie as "promise me" comes right after it. Dany (not even alive at the time)) got the story from somewhere.

We have a story from 2 characters that match.. and go along with GRRM's statement on the historical practice of arranged marriage. To counter it we have:

Lyanna's statement "Robert would never keep to one bed"---aGoT page 367... on the day Rickard promised her hand to Robert.

and

Meera's born in 283AC same as Dany (she was not even alive at the time) got the story from somewhere. The dragon prince played a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle,--aSoS SS page 340

Robert - as @Rhaenys_Targaryen says ... Dany was not even born until 2 years after the abduction/eloping and 8-9 months after Rhargar & Lyanna's deaths.

Dany was born nine moons after the midnight flight from King's Landing. The war lasted almost a year before King's landing was sacked. The war started an unknown time after Lyanna was abducted. One can solidly say Dany was born 9 months after almost a year...

Jon was born 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany.

Rhaegar and Lyanna did not die together they both died with Ned in the area... however the locations were 900 miles apart with Lyanny dying 900 miles later.

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Mel clearly wants to sacrifice Edric Storm in ASoS to wake dragons from stone for Stannis. She can fake/make Lightbringer with a glamor, but to fake/create dragons, she needs some actual blood magic. Dragons for Azor Ahai/the promised prince come up in ASoS, not only in ADwD. Reread the book.



I really don't care what the ancient books of Asshai claim. Whatever they knew about the historical Last Hero (who, they, apparently, call Azor Ahai), it cannot be the truth. If they did not know that the original hero didn't have a literal 'Lightbringer' sword, they would not know that the reborn version of the hero also would not have a literal version of the sword...



If you are brought up in a certain religions tradition - which happens to be completely wrong about the identity and the deeds of some legendary hero who brought back spring and the light of day - and you have some unclear visions which you believe refer to the second coming of said hero, you will reinterpret and integrate those visions into your religious world view. The Asshai'i will do that, the Valyrians will do that, the Red Priests will do that, the Targaryens will do that etc.



Mel is clearly also aware of the 'dragons from stone' prophecy stuff, since she also claims that this is an important feature (as does, obviously, the High Priest Benerro) - perhaps the Asshai'i knew about that, too, or it is part of a Valyrian prophetic tradition that was only incorporated into R'hllorism after it had expanded as far west as Valyria/the Free Cities.



We also know that magic swords and weapons will become important - dragonglass weapons, 'dragonsteel' weapons. The latter could easily prove to be proto-Valyrian steel weapons, i.e. weapons made with the same/similar spells the Freeholders later used in Valyria.



But it's clear that GRRM is making a connection there between various 'dragon' stuff and actual dragons.



And Mel thinks Azor Ahai/the promised prince is male - Jon clearly is as close to the promised prince as a male could possibly be. That may clearly prevent her from seeing the real deal. GRRM is also clearly saving the Daenerys revelation for a later time, at least insofar as Jon Snow, Stannis, and Melisandre are concerned. It is no coincidence that Dany never came up at all during conversation on Dragonstone with Stannis and Mel, and it is pretty clear that neither of them knows yet that she has woken dragons from stone. That knowledge most certainly will cause Melisandre to reassess her interpretation of the prophecy.



And still, I'm not saying that Dany is the only hero in the story. The idea that there is only one savior may be also a mistake. 'The three heads of the dragon' also indicate as much - three heads, but one body, i.e. a hero with three heads, or three heroes with dragon blood who have work together to do whatever the hell has to be done.


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Mel clearly wants to sacrifice Edric Storm in ASoS to wake dragons from stone for Stannis. She can fake/make Lightbringer with a glamor, but to fake/create dragons, she needs some actual blood magic. Dragons for Azor Ahai/the promised prince come up in ASoS, not only in ADwD. Reread the book.

I really don't care what the ancient books of Asshai claim. Whatever they knew about the historical Last Hero (who, they, apparently, call Azor Ahai), it cannot be the truth. If they did not know that the original hero didn't have a literal 'Lightbringer' sword, they would not know that the reborn version of the hero also would not have a literal version of the sword...

If you are brought up in a certain religions tradition - which happens to be completely wrong about the identity and the deeds of some legendary hero who brought back spring and the light of day - and you have some unclear visions which you believe refer to the second coming of said hero, you will reinterpret and integrate those visions into your religious world view. The Asshai'i will do that, the Valyrians will do that, the Red Priests will do that, the Targaryens will do that etc.

Mel is clearly also aware of the 'dragons from stone' prophecy stuff, since she also claims that this is an important feature (as does, obviously, the High Priest Benerro) - perhaps the Asshai'i knew about that, too, or it is part of a Valyrian prophetic tradition that was only incorporated into R'hllorism after it had expanded as far west as Valyria/the Free Cities.

We also know that magic swords and weapons will become important - dragonglass weapons, 'dragonsteel' weapons. The latter could easily prove to be proto-Valyrian steel weapons, i.e. weapons made with the same/similar spells the Freeholders later used in Valyria.

But it's clear that GRRM is making a connection there between various 'dragon' stuff and actual dragons.

And Mel thinks Azor Ahai/the promised prince is male - Jon clearly is as close to the promised prince as a male could possibly be. That may clearly prevent her from seeing the real deal. GRRM is also clearly saving the Daenerys revelation for a later time, at least insofar as Jon Snow, Stannis, and Melisandre are concerned. It is no coincidence that Dany never came up at all during conversation on Dragonstone with Stannis and Mel, and it is pretty clear that neither of them knows yet that she has woken dragons from stone. That knowledge most certainly will cause Melisandre to reassess her interpretation of the prophecy.

And still, I'm not saying that Dany is the only hero in the story. The idea that there is only one savior may be also a mistake. 'The three heads of the dragon' also indicate as much - three heads, but one body, i.e. a hero with three heads, or three heroes with dragon blood who have work together to do whatever the hell has to be done.

The connection between the prophecy and the dragon must have three heads is shaky...

The dragon's three heads are definitely part of Targaryen tradition. their sigil has a three headed dragon. It is mentioned by Targaryens, However, the phrase the dragon has three heads is limited to them whereas the prophecy is not.

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Maybe because actual honor resides in allowing a woman some choice in the matter, regardless of whether you're talking about marriage or sex? Craster allows his daughters no choice in either the marriage or the sex. There is no honor in forcing either.

Of course there's no honor is forcing either.. I'm using the quote as an illustration of something. Craster is a terrible man, never said otherwise. Forget Craster himself. Look at the quote. If you want to bed a woman, you marry her first. And the fact that it's being said directly to Jon is significant.

That's an idea I followed, as well.

thank you

Mambru, don't forget that we don't know Elia was silent. That's just wishful thinking on the part of those who wish she was, so they can say, "See? She was OK with it! Rhaegar did nothing wrong!"

Or it's called theorizing. Oberyn could have brought up Elia and her feelings over R and L while he was in KL, as could Doran when he was speaking to Arianne at the end of Feast. All we hear about is how the Martells are upset over Elia's treatment, but nothing about her herself and her own feelings. So yeah, she is silent. It's worth talking about.

I think it's likely that this is one of those cleverly hidden clues... Yeah Rhaegar is nothing like Craster, nor should we compare wildling practices to Westerosi ones. But Craster is speaking to Jon about his parentage there, so it's not really about a comparison but an ironic hint that Jon's parents were indeed married ;)

EXACTLY. Thank you. That's all I'm saying here.

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Agreed. It sounds a lot like foreshadowing. Especially when you think about the fact that Craster has met many bastards in the NW...why make a comment SPECIFICALLY about Jon Snow? ...unless it was a hint.

Yes. It's a nice little nudge from GRRM.

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Or it's called theorizing. Oberyn could have brought up Elia and her feelings over R and L while he was in KL, as could Doran when he was speaking to Arianne at the end of Feast. All we hear about is how the Martells are upset over Elia's treatment, but nothing about her herself and her own feelings. So yeah, she is silent. It's worth talking about.

And why should Oberyn brought up Elia and her feelings in front of Tyrion? Why should Doran do it? Was the conversation about Elia and Rhaegar? No, it wasn't. Elia wasn't silent, it's just that you want her to be. Just like you wanted to make Rhaegar this great man who would have made it work out in a poluygamous marriage with the ridiculous contention that Elia and Lyanna not being sisters would have made it all better because Elia would have accepted Rhaegar's assurances that Aegon would be his heir as a guarantee that Angel Lyanna and Angelic Baby, Angelic Rickard and Angelic North would be perfectly happy.

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The connection between the prophecy and the dragon must have three heads is shaky...

It is Rhaegar saying it and connecting them, in Dany's HotU vision:

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

ACoK 48 Daenerys IV (eta: nice blue colouring all mine!)

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And why should Oberyn brought up Elia and her feelings in front of Tyrion? Why should Doran do it? Was the aswer about Elia and Rhaegar? No, it wasn't. Elia wasn't silent, it's just that you want her to be. Just like you wanted to make Rhaegar this great man who would have made it work out in a poluygamous marriage with the ridiculous contention that Elia and Lyanna not being sisters would have made it all better because Elia would have accepted Rhaegar's assurances that Aegon would be his heir as a guarantee that Angel Lyanna and Angelic Baby, Angelic Rickard and Angelic North would be perfectly happy.

When Doran is laying out his entire plan to Arianne you don't think then would be a good time to bring up that his sister was hurt/angry over Rhaegar's treatment of her and that the Martells wants justice for her on all accounts.

And wow, how about you NOT put words into my mouth. I never said one damn thing about Lyanna and Elia being sisters or everyone being happy and carefree. I've said many time that it would be a political nightmare and it was politically naive of Rhaegar. I think Elia and Rhaegar talked about all this, is my basic argument. I never said anything about Elia's own enthusiasm. I think she was probably conflicted over the whole thing, but that given prophecy she may have been understanding.

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So it wasn't you with the contention that Aegon's polygamous marriage didn't work out but Rhaegar's would because... Sorry, I really thought it was you.



And how could the Martells have justice for Elia on all accounts? Rhaegar has been dead for almost 20 years. Just how can they avenge her on this account?



Edit: Oh, so now we have Rhaegar's overall treatment. I thought it was about Harrenhall. What makes you think Doran would know about Elia's feelings from Elia herself? When Rhaegar left her to fend for herself, she was busy trying to recover from almost dying. Later, she was Aerys' hostage and he was paranoid over a possible Dornish betrayal. Why any woman with a modicum of common sense would entrust to a raven a message saying how hurt, furious, or humiliated she felt by her husband in these circumstances? Especially a Dornishwoman.


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It is Rhaegar saying it and connecting them, in Dany's HotU vision:

ACoK 48 Daenerys IV (eta: nice blue colouring all mine!)

Just a note, but I think it makes the case stronger. When "Rhaegar" turns and looks directly at Dany, or beyond, to talk about the three heads, I would say that's not the historical Rhaegar but rather it's "MAGIC"--the sort that permeates the entire world--breaking the fourth wall to tell Dany (and the audience) something vital. So Magic is connecting it what Rhaegar is saying.

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Mel clearly wants to sacrifice Edric Storm in ASoS to wake dragons from stone for Stannis. She can fake/make Lightbringer with a glamor, but to fake/create dragons, she needs some actual blood magic. Dragons for Azor Ahai/the promised prince come up in ASoS, not only in ADwD. Reread the book.

I'm saying that for Mel, 'waking dragons from stone' was not a precondition for Stannis becoming Azor Ahai Reborn...pulling the sword out of the fire was. I misquoted when I said she first said it in the 5th book when she also said it in the 3rd book. No reason to start up with the 'Reread the book' crap. I've obviously read it and being condescending isn't necessary. My point remains the same. She declared that Stannis was AAR long before she mentions waking dragons out of stone.

I really don't care what the ancient books of Asshai claim. Whatever they knew about the historical Last Hero (who, they, apparently, call Azor Ahai), it cannot be the truth. If they did not know that the original hero didn't have a literal 'Lightbringer' sword, they would not know that the reborn version of the hero also would not have a literal version of the sword...

You don't know what can or can't be the truth. How could you possibly know? They are simply reading the flames. We've seen what Melisandre sees her in her flames. If she sees a sword, she would say 'sword'. If she sees a dragon, she would say 'dragon'. She wouldn't see one and mistake it for another. We have two very separate and very distinct prophecies concerning AAR...one mentions pulling a sword out of a fire, the other mentions waking dragons from stone. Which is it? They obviously aren't talking about the same thing. We know dragons have been woken out of stone...literally. Why would that part be literal and not the part about pulling a sword out of a fire? Why would THAT part be metaphorical?

If you are brought up in a certain religions tradition - which happens to be completely wrong about the identity and the deeds of some legendary hero who brought back spring and the light of day - and you have some unclear visions which you believe refer to the second coming of said hero, you will reinterpret and integrate those visions into your religious world view. The Asshai'i will do that, the Valyrians will do that, the Red Priests will do that, the Targaryens will do that etc.

You're making the assumption that they are wrong in their original story of Azor Ahai. I see no basis for that assumption. People misread the flames, yes. But no one is going to interpet a sword as a dragon and vice versa. And it still doesn't explain why there are two separate prophecies concerning AAR, one mentioning dragons and the other mentioning swords. It also doesn't explain whether there's only ONE bleeding star in one version and more than one in another version.

Mel is clearly also aware of the 'dragons from stone' prophecy stuff, since she also claims that this is an important feature (as does, obviously, the High Priest Benerro) - perhaps the Asshai'i knew about that, too, or it is part of a Valyrian prophetic tradition that was only incorporated into R'hllorism after it had expanded as far west as Valyria/the Free Cities.

More assumptions with no basis. We don't know how R'hollorism started, nor can we separate out Valyrian traditions from Asshai traditions.

We also know that magic swords and weapons will become important - dragonglass weapons, 'dragonsteel' weapons. The latter could easily prove to be proto-Valyrian steel weapons, i.e. weapons made with the same/similar spells the Freeholders later used in Valyria.

But it's clear that GRRM is making a connection there between various 'dragon' stuff and actual dragons.

You keep using that word 'clear' as if we have been straight up told what to expect. We haven't. But Dragons aren't the ONLY thing that will kill them, as we plainly see. Obsidian, which is made by volcanic eruptions, kills them. We even have a volcanic eruption that destroyed Hardhome. So Dragons aren't the only source of heat that we see in the story.

And Mel thinks Azor Ahai/the promised prince is male - Jon clearly is as close to the promised prince as a male could possibly be. That may clearly prevent her from seeing the real deal. GRRM is also clearly saving the Daenerys revelation for a later time, at least insofar as Jon Snow, Stannis, and Melisandre are concerned. It is no coincidence that Dany never came up at all during conversation on Dragonstone with Stannis and Mel, and it is pretty clear that neither of them knows yet that she has woken dragons from stone. That knowledge most certainly will cause Melisandre to reassess her interpretation of the prophecy.

We don't know what Mel thought before she found Stannis. We don't even know exactly what led her to think that Stannis was AAR. As far as we know, she only thinks that AAR is male because she thinks Stannis is AAR.

And if Martin were 'clearly' saving the AAR revelation about Dany for a later book, he wouldn't have had her so obviously fulfill one of the prophecies in the very first book. I would bet most readers, as soon as they found out about the 'dragons' part of the prophecy, thought "Oh, duh. It's Dany". I did. Then I changed my mind over the course of the last book because he gave us MORE information. And it still doesn't explain why Jon had a dream about holding a burning sword fighting the Others or why Melisandre sees Jon in her flames when she looks for "R'hollor's instrument".

And still, I'm not saying that Dany is the only hero in the story. The idea that there is only one savior may be also a mistake. 'The three heads of the dragon' also indicate as much - three heads, but one body, i.e. a hero with three heads, or three heroes with dragon blood who have work together to do whatever the hell has to be done.

I never thought there was only 'one hero'. I was simply pointing out that I think it is folly to say that Dany is 'clearly' AAR when it's not remotely clear at all.

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Melisandre doesn't say this until book 5. Before that, she said that AAR will pull a burning sword from a fire and he who clasps it shall be AA come again. Amazing how Melisandre doesn't see Dany in her vision when she's looking for AAR. You'd think she would...but she sees Jon Snow instead. Why would that be, if she's clearly AAR?

That's actually not surprising, she didn't glimpse Jon in her fires before actually meeting him did she?

The accounts of the Long Night that Sam relates to Jon seem to indicate that he can:

“I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

We know from Old Nan's stories that the Last Hero prevailed over the Others with the help of the CotF.

Sadly we don't know how he did this. I really doubt he lined up all the others and beat each one in single combat. Having a sword that your enemies "cannot stand against" is nice, but I still don't think one man with one really good sword can make the difference in a war just by fighting.

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That's actually not surprising, she didn't glimpse Jon in her fires before actually meeting him did she?

I can't say for sure when it comes to the books. She never puts a 'timeframe' on them:

“R’hllor sends us what visions he will, but I shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames.” Melisandre’s red lips curled into a smile. “I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow.”

“Is that a threat, my lady? Do you mean to burn me too?”

“You mistake my meaning.” She gave him a searching look. “I fear that I make you uneasy, Lord Snow.”

Jon did not deny it. “The Wall is no place for a woman.”

“You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. “This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?”

It's obvious that she has had more than one vision of Jon, though, from this quote:

“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

In the show, it's definite that she has seen Jon Snow before she reached the Wall, because of this moment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNIuXV2gLwE

That looks states very clearly that she has seen him before. We'll have to see what she says next season about it.

The real kicker? When she looks at him, the music subtly changes to the "Warrior of Light" theme.

Also, there's no indication in text or show that AAR will be alone in his fight. I don't know why this keeps getting brought up as a knock against there being a magical sword.

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That's actually not surprising, she didn't glimpse Jon in her fires before actually meeting him did she?

Sadly we don't know how he did this. I really doubt he lined up all the others and beat each one in single combat. Having a sword that your enemies "cannot stand against" is nice, but I still don't think one man with one really good sword can make the difference in a war just by fighting.

Well at least there's indication that hero's had magical blades that helped kick some Others butt...

The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been.

“I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

(and many more hints that a red sword of hero's will be essential).

and indication he did have help too...

Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone

Whereas -- there's no indication whatsoever that Azor Ahai (or Last Hero) fought the Others with dragons, for example.

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On a somewhat related note, since I have the music up...

How AWESOME would it be if the "Warrior of Light" theme switched from being Stannis' theme to being Jon's theme? What if, when he's 'born again' (however that happens), they play that theme?

I just get chills thinking about it XD

/rambling mode off

//just really LOVE that theme

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It is Rhaegar saying it and connecting them, in Dany's HotU vision:

ACoK 48 Daenerys IV (eta: nice blue colouring all mine!)

Quote

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

ACoK 48 Daenerys IV (eta: nice blue colouring all mine!)

“The dragon must have three heads,” he wailed, “but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.”.--aFfC chapter 26

Two Targaryens mention the same phrase "the dragon must have three heads"

“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

“Is this a riddle?” Roone wanted to know. “Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales.”
“No riddle.” Alleras sipped his wine.
“No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banners,” Armen the Acolyte said firmly. “That was a heraldic charge, no more. Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead.”
“Not all,” said Alleras. “The Beggar King had a sister.”
“I thought her head was smashed against a wall,” said Roone.
“No,” said Alleras. “It was Prince Rhaegar’s young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister’s brave men. We speak of Rhaegar’s sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys.”
“The Stormborn. I recall her now.”
Prologue, AFfC
The prophecy is common knowledge (cited earlier in Aemon's going over the studying of the prophecy as well as Mel's knowledge of the prophecy)... the three heads of the dragon is common Targaryen knowledge...
Rhaegar does not call the prince that was promised must have three heads... nor that the prince that was promised is the dragon...
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