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RumHam

R+L=J v. 102

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Well, it is to me, at least with the knowledge about the fulfilled prophecies up to this point.



I imagine Mel thinks that Azor Ahai has to fulfill a list of prophecies - pulling a sword for the fire, waking dragons from stones. You don't have to be a genius to conclude that Mel asked Stannis to take Storm's End and Edric Storm because she already knew that she had to sacrifice him to wake dragons from stone in ACoK.



Mel's conclusion that Stannis is Azor Ahai is on very shaky ground. She knows that her sword is not Lightbringer, thus pulling this sword out of the fire cannot be the fulfillment of the prophecy - unless prophecies can also be fulfilled if the the person who has a vision 'fulfills' it by reenacting in real life what she has seen in the flames. That's a very naive approach to the whole thing.



It seems that Dragonstone was the key for Mel, at least that's the vibe I got from Mel's talk with Jon about Azor Ahai and Dragonstone.



On Azor Ahai:



We don't know if the prophecies about the promised prince or Azor Ahai's return - the ones written down centuries or millennia ago (in the ancient books of Asshai) - originated in visions some Red Priests had in the flames. Somehow I doubt that. How the hell would somebody be able to conclude that a person he is is supposed to the second coming of a prophesied hero if he just sees some random guy? When there were no prophecies about the return of the hero, no one would have actively looked for him in the flames, after all...



And as to why it is pretty obvious that the Red Priests and the eastern guys have little to no clue about the purpose of the hero/savior they are obsessed about:



Check Benerro's quotes about what he expects Daenerys as reborn Azor Ahai will do - fighting some obscure, generalized darkness, ensure that the people dying in her service will be reborn. Also check the quotes from Votar's 'Jade Compendium' about what the 'historical Azor Ahai' actually did - he slew some with his magic sword. That's not exactly what the Last Hero did, nor is it? Or what we expect the reborn savior is going to do...



The idea that a magic sword will be crucial (or some magical weapons) in the defeat of the Others is ridiculous in my opinion. Even the dragons may not be enough. There is a reason why we don't yet know who the Others are, what they want, and there is also a reason why we have still no clue what actually happened during and at the end of the War of the Dawn. Just as I've already said - there is a pretty good chance that the Last Hero did not actually succeed, or else there would have been little/no reason to build the Wall (i.e. to expect the return of the Others).



And if the people in Westeros - even the Night's Watch - no longer actually know what happened back the hell, why the hell would anyone assume that the people in Essos would have even have the slightest idea what actually happened?


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I can't say for sure when it comes to the books. She never puts a 'timeframe' on them:

snip

Yeah we can't be certain, but there's no indication she saw him before coming to the wall. It's also within the realm of possibility that she has seen glimpses of Daenerys and just didn't know who she was.

I don't think the show is gonna deviate from the books on major things like "who is the savior of the world" but we still probably shouldn't draw conclusions from the show. I agree with your interpretation of that scene though. And it still works if Jon is just 1/3 of Azor Ahai reborn. He's still the first piece she's seen in the flesh.

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To protect her birthright and avoid the marriage. And to do so, she turned to a person of high authority whom she had met at a social occasion :D

Alys who, reminds of Arya who looks like Lyanna.

Okay, thats right, thanks!

(It looks like I'm ready for a re-read). :blink:

Love that story! It actually started as a short story with much more adult elements in the 70s, but was revised to be a children's novella in 1980. It's been out of print off and on since, with a new lavishly illustrated edition due on October 21 of this year. Even though I already own it, I'll be purchasing the new edition for the gorgeous artwork :)

Oh I can't wait then. :drool:

More to look forward to.

And again, I really enjoyed the last installment of Radio Westeros, and all of Yolkboys insights and interviews.And I really like X-Ray the Enforcer.

As I told you, I had heard her in an interview before, as well as GRRM, and wanted the book he had referenced on the fourteenth century while writing aSoIaF, and I reached out to her. She went back to GRRM and got the title for me, so she will make it happen, lol.

But I don't think it can be said enough, thank you to you and Yolkboy for your hard work, early mornings, passion and dedication that makes our everyday "stuff," easier to deal with. :bowdown:

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Well, it is to me, at least with the knowledge about the fulfilled prophecies up to this point.

It isn't to me, because both Dany and Jon have partially fulfilled the prophecies. Neither of them has a sword, though, which is why I won't declare one or the other to be AAR yet. I just think that the signs point to Jon. I think Dany is the Stallion that mounts the World. I think it's a toss up for who the Prince that was Promised is...we really don't know enough about that one to make any definitive assumptions.

I imagine Mel thinks that Azor Ahai has to fulfill a list of prophecies - pulling a sword for the fire, waking dragons from stones. You don't have to be a genius to conclude that Mel asked Stannis to take Storm's End and Edric Storm because she already knew that she had to sacrifice him to wake dragons from stone in ACoK.

Mel's conclusion that Stannis is Azor Ahai is on very shaky ground. She knows that her sword is not Lightbringer, thus pulling this sword out of the fire cannot be the fulfillment of the prophecy - unless prophecies can also be fulfilled if the the person who has a vision 'fulfills' it by reenacting in real life what she has seen in the flames. That's a very naive approach to the whole thing.

Her conclusion that Stannis is AAR is most certainly wrong. But she believes it, and we know she believes it because we have seen it from her POV. She obviously believes that fate needs a push, and that she is R'hollor's chosen one to find the savior. We don't know WHY she thinks it, but it's clear that she believes it without a doubt. She's not purposely misleading...she's misinterpreted something along the way. But what if she really IS the one to find the savior...and part of doing so was going to Stannis and making sure he went to the Wall? We don't know...we just know that Melisandre has her wires crossed somewhere.

It seems that Dragonstone was the key for Mel, at least that's the vibe I got from Mel's talk with Jon about Azor Ahai and Dragonstone.

She thinks it's key, yes...but that doesn't mean that it is. Almost anything can fit "bleeding star, born amidst smoke and salt". Hell, Jon probably could, too. Ser Arthur Dayne died in his defense, I'm sure there were tears involved, and smoke could come from somewhere. It can fit almost anything at all if you want it to.

On Azor Ahai:

We don't know if the prophecies about the promised prince or Azor Ahai's return - the ones written down centuries or millennia ago (in the ancient books of Asshai) - originated in visions some Red Priests had in the flames. Somehow I doubt that. How the hell would somebody be able to conclude that a person he is is supposed to the second coming of a prophesied hero if he just sees some random guy? When there were no prophecies about the return of the hero, no one would have actively looked for him in the flames, after all...

Well, they might be able to say that he is the second coming if he happens to have the legendary weapon that the original guy had.

And as to why it is pretty obvious that the Red Priests and the eastern guys have little to no clue about the purpose of the hero/savior they are obsessed about:

Check Benerro's quotes about what he expects Daenerys as reborn Azor Ahai will do - fighting some obscure, generalized darkness, ensure that the people dying in her service will be reborn. Also check the quotes from Votar's 'Jade Compendium' about what the 'historical Azor Ahai' actually did - he slew some with his magic sword. That's not exactly what the Last Hero did, nor is it? Or what we expect the reborn savior is going to do...

I don't know what they did, other than what the text says. If the text says "he defeated the darkness using a magic flaming sword, but he didn't do it alone", then I'm going to have to go with that until we have something that directly contradicts it. This is fantasy above all else. Magical shit happens. I have no reason to be cynical unless given a reason to be so.

The idea that a magic sword will be crucial (or some magical weapons) in the defeat of the Others is ridiculous in my opinion. Even the dragons may not be enough. There is a reason why we don't yet know who the Others are, what they want, and there is also a reason why we have still no clue what actually happened during and at the end of the War of the Dawn. Just as I've already said - there is a pretty good chance that the Last Hero did not actually succeed, or else there would have been little/no reason to build the Wall (i.e. to expect the return of the Others).

Again, this wasn't my idea, so I don't know why you are saying I'm ridiculous for suggesting it when it comes straight from the book itself. I agree that it's completely clich├ęd and it wouldn't be my first choice of weapon, but I don't see why everyone thinks having a sword like that would be useless for a warrior who uses SWORDS. It's not like dragons will be enough to defeat the Others. People are going to need weapons to fight them. That would be a very useful weapon in the circumstances for a man who knows how to wield a sword.

And if the people in Westeros - even the Night's Watch - no longer actually know what happened back the hell, why the hell would anyone assume that the people in Essos would have even have the slightest idea what actually happened?

No clue, but I don't see what bearing that has on anything whatsoever.

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Yeah we can't be certain, but there's no indication she saw him before coming to the wall. It's also within the realm of possibility that she has seen glimpses of Daenerys and just didn't know who she was.

I don't think the show is gonna deviate from the books on major things like "who is the savior of the world" but we still probably shouldn't draw conclusions from the show. I agree with your interpretation of that scene though. And it still works if Jon is just 1/3 of Azor Ahai reborn. He's still the first piece she's seen in the flesh.

On this particular subject, it seems to me that the books and the show work together in tandem to give us different pieces of the puzzle. I wouldn't use it for everything, but I think it works in this case.

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The thing is, Daenerys drew three dragons out of the fire, and conveniently the name of the magic sword is 'Lightbringer', which is exactly what the fire-breathing dragons also happen to do. That is certainly no coincidence.



More importantly, the story of the original Azor Ahai forging the original Lightbringer also greatly resembles Daenerys' losses when she sacrificed Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo (or Drogo, Rhaego, and Drogo again) for her dragons in the sense that



- she used to hatch the dragon eggs three times, and only succeeded the third time.



- she sacrificed what she loved the most - pretty much everything she had - to get the dragons.



Azor Ahai pretty much did the same, didn't he?



Whereas Jon Snow never had all that much, he did not yet really sacrifice anything at all in a magical ritual, nor did he actually sacrifice anything in more general terms. He doesn't know anything about his true heritage, thus he just exchanged the life as a bastard at Winterfell for the life at the Wall. Even the Ygritte story is no real sacrifice. He didn't kill her with his own hands, nor was he prepared to do it.


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Of course there's no honor is forcing either.. I'm using the quote as an illustration of something. Craster is a terrible man, never said otherwise. Forget Craster himself. Look at the quote. If you want to bed a woman, you marry her first. And the fact that it's being said directly to Jon is significant.

Sorry, I can't forget the source - if one uses Craster as a source of an authoratative declaration on honorable marriage vs. bastards, his veracity as a source of has to be considered...we have to consider him.

I can't take uncritically from Craster that Marriage automatically = honor to a woman, completely independently of the coercive circumstances of that marriage ("But I don't want to be fooking married to you, Father!"), and that therefore having a woman as a lover who willingly gives herself in full knowledge without marriage must automatically = dishonoring her.

Craster is set up as one of the closest things in the books to an embodiment of pure evil, and therefore when HE preaches of morality, it's probably best to consider it Opposite Day, and take his teachings as instructive of what good people ought NOT to do or think. So to pick out that ONE thing that he says (among all the other evil things he says and does) and say that that ONE thing is totally right and correct and in harmony with what ALL Westeros would think of honor, just because that ONE thing provides a hint of proof of your theory - doesn't convince me.

Because when cruel Craster praises marriage and denigrates bastards as intrinsically inferior because of their origin - is he right about that, too? Is a bastard intrinsically an inferior creature due to circumstances beyond his control, no matter what his virtues and good works are? I think that we would disagree, and even some of the better Westerosi would disagree. And I think that GRRM's entire work is dedicated to undermining the whole simpleminded black/white view of conventional Westerosi morality, showing us its cruelty and stupidity. Knight=honor, nobility=perfection, smallfolk=scum, virgin=good girl, non-virgin=worthless whore...all these and others are conventional Westerosi moral views, and GRRM has undermined them all. His heroes undermine them with their actions. For example, Sam is honorable, and has a loving unmarried relationship with Gilly. Does that make his relationship with her dishonorable as compared to the relationship of Ramsey with Jeyne Poole? After all, he married her (without her choice) before abusing her horribly. I'm sure you would agree that Sam behaves more honorably. And IMO, even one of the better Westerosi would say the same. The black/white moral view isn't realistic - not in our world, and not in a complexly-drawn world like Westeros.

So I don't think GRRM, having undermined all those simpleminded black/white moral views, would say, "Yeah. all those are wrong. But the one that says "Bastard=inferior"? Evil daughter-raping Craster was totally right about that one. No matter what his hard work, his skill and his virtues are, if Jon were a bastard he'd STILL be unworthy. Fortunately, I as author will produce this deus ex marriage certificate to prove that he's not one of those worthless creatures. Jon is NOT an inferior bastard, and therefore he's worthy to be the Hero of Heroes! Aren't you all relieved he wasn't one of those unworthy baseborn?"

Doesn't inspire me much.

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Just a note, but I think it makes the case stronger. When "Rhaegar" turns and looks directly at Dany, or beyond, to talk about the three heads, I would say that's not the historical Rhaegar but rather it's "MAGIC"--the sort that permeates the entire world--breaking the fourth wall to tell Dany (and the audience) something vital. So Magic is connecting it what Rhaegar is saying.

:agree:

Oh I can't wait then. :drool:

More to look forward to.

Then don't wait and get "Dreamsongs - a R.R.etrospective" - one of the best of GRRM's works, stuffed with the best short stories he wrote. I was thrilled by nearly all of them. And it contains "The Ice Dragon". Careful if you are into Audible - there the two books (Deamsongs and Dreamsongs II) are split into three audiobooks (Dreamsongs I, II, III), and there it is in Dreamsongs II, not in the first volume,

RE Melisandre seeing Azor Ahai in the flames and suddenly it is Jon. It may have become Jon instead of Stannis after Jon decided to turn down Val and R'hollored Winterfell. Hving stood the test of temptation, Jon became the current incarnation of AA reborn. And if that's the case, AA2 may soon become Aegon and some-Baratheon-girl(Myrcella/Shireen) and Dany and Sansa in turn...

reported

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:agree:

Then don't wait and get "Dreamsongs - a R.R.etrospective" - one of the best of GRRM's works, stuffed with the best short stories he wrote. I was thrilled by nearly all of them. And it contains "The Ice Dragon". Careful if you are into Audible - there the two books (Deamsongs and Dreamsongs II) are split into three audiobooks (Dreamsongs I, II, III), and there it is in Dreamsongs II, not in the first volume,

RE Melisandre seeing Azor Ahai in the flames and suddenly it is Jon. It may have become Jon instead of Stannis after Jon decided to turn down Val and R'hollored Winterfell. Hving stood the test of temptation, Jon became the current incarnation of AA reborn. And if that's the case, AA2 may soon become Aegon and some-Baratheon-girl(Myrcella/Shireen) and Dany and Sansa in turn...

reported

Oh thank you, I will. :)

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The thing is, Daenerys drew three dragons out of the fire, and conveniently the name of the magic sword is 'Lightbringer', which is exactly what the fire-breathing dragons also happen to do. That is certainly no coincidence.

More importantly, the story of the original Azor Ahai forging the original Lightbringer also greatly resembles Daenerys' losses when she sacrificed Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo (or Drogo, Rhaego, and Drogo again) for her dragons in the sense that

- she used to hatch the dragon eggs three times, and only succeeded the third time.

- she sacrificed what she loved the most - pretty much everything she had - to get the dragons.

Azor Ahai pretty much did the same, didn't he?

...so three dragons are now the same as one sword? Dany can only ride one dragon. Two other people will have to ride the dragons. Will they also be AAR?

Whereas Jon Snow never had all that much, he did not yet really sacrifice anything at all in a magical ritual, nor did he actually sacrifice anything in more general terms. He doesn't know anything about his true heritage, thus he just exchanged the life as a bastard at Winterfell for the life at the Wall. Even the Ygritte story is no real sacrifice. He didn't kill her with his own hands, nor was he prepared to do it.

Jon's story isn't done. If the books ended right here, than yeah, Dany would obviously be the one closest to fulfilling the prophecy. But the books aren't finished...there's two more books. Jon will find out who he is in the next book. It's impossible to make any absolute determinations at this point, that is my point.

If you want to think Dany is AAR, go ahead. All I'm saying is that you don't have enough information to say that Jon COULDN'T be or that Lightbringer HAS TO BE a dragon.

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...so three dragons are now the same as one sword? Dany can only ride one dragon.

The veritable sword without a hilt - see!

(no. Just kidding.)

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...so three dragons are now the same as one sword? Dany can only ride one dragon. Two other people will have to ride the dragons. Will they also be AAR?

This is actually what I, and I'm pretty sure Lord Varys, have been suggesting for some time now. That Daenerys, Jon and a third person (Tyrion if he turns out to be Aerys' bastard) are all Azor Ahai reborn.

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