Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

RumHam

R+L=J v. 102

Recommended Posts

In hard times, birthright will not matter. Stability, safety and food will. Nobles know this too and will flock to that whether it be lannister, martell, tyrell, snow, baratheon or whoever. Famine will undermine any legitimacy. Peasant uprisings, crime and such are likely to keep lords at home fixing their own stuff rather than at war over a name or marriage.

How is R+L=J going to matter?

Because then Jon will be the son of Rhaegar, and thus come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys..

Remember who else is supposed to come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys? The Prince that was Promised.

So it could point to Jon being said Promised Prince.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In hard times, birthright will not matter. Stability, safety and food will. Nobles know this too and will flock to that whether it be lannister, martell, tyrell, snow, baratheon or whoever. Famine will undermine any legitimacy. Peasant uprisings, crime and such are likely to keep lords at home fixing their own stuff rather than at war over a name or marriage.

How is R+L=J going to matter?

Oh, it won't mean anything at all. It's obvious that Martin has spent 5 books building up the mystery surrounding Jon with clues, hints and foreshadowing, only to pull a 'Gotcha!' on the readers and not have it matter at all.

:rolleyes:

Anyway:

1. Lannisters - it's a safe guess that Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella will die. Who would they 'go' to? Jaime? He's a Kingslayer who committed incest with the king's wife and produced illegitimate children that caused all of the problems in the first place. Tyrion? A dwarf guilty of kinslaying and other atrocities? Sure, they are EXACTLY what the kingdom needs.

2. Martells - So far, all of their plans to take the throne have gone to hell.

3. Tyrells - They are attached to the Lannisters at the hip and have sunk a lot of money into supporting the kingdom during the latest war. I would be shocked to see them back on the throne after Margaery's failed marriages to dead kings.

4. Baratheon - won't exist by the end of the series. I'll place money on that. Neither Stannis nor Shireen will survive.

They will not put a known bastard on the Iron Throne when there are actual Targaryans that could take the throne back. Why would they choose Jon (if he is a bastard) over Dany? It makes no sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not entirely -- "he would have killed me but for Howland Reed" casts some doubt on the single combat bit. Not really relevant thought -- the simple fact is that what Ned's soldiers might have heard after the event has no bearing on whether or not Ned felt it necessary to keep it secret before the event.

Yes, Ned lies repeatedly. Including little white lies to try to get Robert to do the right thing. I don't really understand the objection.

By the way, I appreciate your effort to use the quote feature more. It makes your posts much easier to follow.

Not entirely -- "he would have killed me but for Howland Reed" casts some doubt on the single combat bit. Not really relevant thought -- the simple fact is that what Ned's soldiers might have heard

The story from the lips of Ned's own soldiers, matches the story from outside sources. That is not "might have heard."

the simple fact is that what Ned's soldiers might have heard after the event has no bearing on whether or not Ned felt it necessary to keep it secret before the event.

It does have no bearing on Ned's feelings the need for secrecy.

It has direct bearing on Ned's ability to maintain secrecy. Ned feeling things must be kept secret is of no consequence it Ned is not able to keep it a secret

Yes, Ned lies repeatedly. Including little white lies to try to get Robert to do the right thing. I don't really understand the objection.

I have Ned telling Jamie and Robert that Catelyn took Tyrion on his orders and Catelyn taking Tyrion on her own.

Ned's statements that do not match facts given in the text.I do have...

Ned's lies to try to get Robert to do the right thing... start and end with your assertion that Ned was lying to get Robert to do the right thing.

This lie is manipulative.... accepting it would mean giving up the claim that Ned is honest and honorable--the type of man that would never father a bastard.

That is the objection

By the way, I appreciate your effort to use the quote feature more. It makes your posts much easier to follow.

As the quotes do not show up in the message reply...I limit them to secondary issues or material from a post other than the one being replied to....

the original post placed in my response is bold.... cited material is red.... my posts are plain text. outside posts and quotes are posted using the quote function.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They were not in love, Rhaegar hadn't seen Lyanna since the tourney at Harrenhal. It makes no sense to think that he suddenly realized he needed her for his "profecy". From what we know of the man, he was not impulsive, he would think things through.

Whether or not R was saving L from Aerys has yet to be determined, but R did love L. (And I think L loved R. Why else is she gripping those roses at the TOJ?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In hard times, birthright will not matter. Stability, safety and food will. Nobles know this too and will flock to that whether it be lannister, martell, tyrell, snow, baratheon or whoever. Famine will undermine any legitimacy. Peasant uprisings, crime and such are likely to keep lords at home fixing their own stuff rather than at war over a name or marriage.

How is R+L=J going to matter?

I don't know that it will matter to the realm when it comes to choosing the a King after the Dawn is brought. But it will matter to Jon and to Dany. And it will matter if Jon is TPTWP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In hard times, birthright will not matter. Stability, safety and food will. Nobles know this too and will flock to that whether it be lannister, martell, tyrell, snow, baratheon or whoever. Famine will undermine any legitimacy. Peasant uprisings, crime and such are likely to keep lords at home fixing their own stuff rather than at war over a name or marriage.

How is R+L=J going to matter?

This is essentially the question that I've landed on with respect to the R+L theory. As you say, what difference would it make to anybody, in the end, if R+L=J? The answer, I think, is that it could make some kind of difference. Specifically, it might make a difference in terms of dramatic irony or satisfaction for Martin's readers. In story, it might make a difference if we are to believe that there are magical implications tied to Stark and/or Targaryen blood (and particularly in their joining). Or it might make a difference to a few specific characters - for instance, if Dany ever ran into Jon and thought he was Rhaegar's son, clearly that would impact the way she approaches and thinks of him.

I have a much more difficult time imagining that the Westerosi people in general would be much affected if, suddenly, they learned that Jon Snow was Rhaegar's son. As you point out above, Squab - political legitimacy is, at best, a social construct, and the Seven Kingdoms is in the midst of (its latest) revolution. The "good old days," if they ever were really that good to begin with, are long gone. The Targs themselves took the throne by Conquest, and held it briefly with dragons... their "legitimacy" was the threat of "Fire and Blood"... and it's hard to imagine a new one winning it back any other way.

Because then Jon will be the son of Rhaegar, and thus come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys..

Remember who else is supposed to come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys? The Prince that was Promised.

So it could point to Jon being said Promised Prince.

I know who else came from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, and fits that prophesied bill: Rhaego.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know who else came from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, and fits that prophesied bill: Rhaego.

The only problem is that he's dead.

I was just about to say this. If Rhaego is TPTWP, then Westeros is screwed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only problem is that he's dead.

...and was never technically born.

I was just about to say this. If Rhaego is TPTWP, then Westeros is screwed.

"Dammit, Dany! Look what you did!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not R was saving L from Aerys has yet to be determined, but R did love L. (And I think L loved R. Why else is she gripping those roses at the TOJ?)

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

A storm of rose petals blew across the blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.--aGoT page 410

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died. When Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish Princess Elia Martell to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses blue as frost.

Ned's Stark's hand reached out to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke trembling in the dark.--aGoT page 608

Corpses lined the benches below..

But there were others, faces he had never known in life..

a slim sad, girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white dress spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.--aCoK page 731

Lyanna and roses are tied to death and blood.... not love... when Lyanna and Roses are together there is death and blood....

Ned's reaction to the crown... is pretty negative...

Ned's Stark's hand reached out to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin sharp and cruel,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just about to say this. If Rhaego is TPTWP, then Westeros is screwed.

In more ways than one, perhaps. But I'm not just being facetious. Given Maester Aemon's end-of-life ramblings about wisdom and translation errors, it looks like "the Prince that was Promised" is a bit of a misleading phrase. I think we all might be better served if we reconsidered that prophecy in terms of "the Dragon that was Promised."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In more ways than one, perhaps. But I'm not just being facetious. Given Maester Aemon's end-of-life ramblings about wisdom and translation errors, it looks like "the Prince that was Promised" is a bit of a misleading phrase. I think we all might be better served if we reconsidered that prophecy in terms of "the Dragon that was Promised."

I don't see how we have enough information to arbitrarily change the prophecy's wording and meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how we have enough information to arbitrarily change the prophecy's wording and meaning.

Even if you change it into "The Dragon that was Promised".. seeing as dragons in prophecies usually refer to Targaryens (by blood), Jon would still fit the bill. ;)

...and was never technically born.

I'd also call being born a requirement, yes, indeed...

Also, I wouldn't actually say that Rhaego was born admits smoke and salt (as he was never truly born), nor was there a red comet to herald his coming..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how we have enough information to arbitrarily change the prophecy's wording and meaning.

It's not an arbitrary change at all. It's what Aemon recognizes and tells Sam in Braavos - that "no one ever looked for a girl..." but they should have because "dragons are neither male nor female." The error crept in from the translation, he says - meaning that the word in question was the word for dragon, and translating it with a more gender-specific word ("prince") was a mistake.

Thus - it was a Dragon that was promised, rather than a prince.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not an arbitrary change at all. It's what Aemon recognizes and tells Sam in Braavos - that "no one ever looked for a girl..." but they should have because "dragons are neither male nor female." The error crept in from the translation, he says - meaning that the word in question was the word for dragon, and translating it with a more gender-specific word ("prince") was a mistake.

Thus - it was a Dragon that was promised, rather than a prince.

But like Rhaenys said, that's still Jon since he's Rhaegar's son. He is at least half Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if you change it into "The Dragon that was Promised".. seeing as dragons in prophecies usually refer to Targaryens (by blood), Jon would still fit the bill. ;)

But like Rhaenys said, that's still Jon since he's Rhaegar's son. He is at least half Dragon

It could be Jon, if one assumes that he has Targaryen blood. Or perhaps it would still apply to Jon, should he turn out to have Greyjoy blood. (The Greyjoys also maintain a family heritage connection to dragons.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not an arbitrary change at all. It's what Aemon recognizes and tells Sam in Braavos - that "no one ever looked for a girl..." but they should have because "dragons are neither male nor female." The error crept in from the translation, he says - meaning that the word in question was the word for dragon, and translating it with a more gender-specific word ("prince") was a mistake.

Thus - it was a Dragon that was promised, rather than a prince.

Yes, but we don't know enough about high Valyrian to say that he was talking about actual 'dragons' and not those who have the blood of the dragon. Language is tricky like that...meaning is very specific or vague, depending on the context. We don't know anything about the context, other than Aemon thinks that the prophecy can mean male or female. Take a language like Japanese, which prizes ambiguity and where there is no gender unless specified...but people might assign a meaning to it that it never had in translation.

I'm simply saying we can't say that the original prophecy was talking about 'dragons' specifically. Since the Valyrians were very close to dragons, maybe their language was built around them, incorporating them in ways that don't actually MEAN dragon. We just don't have enough information to change the prophecy's meaning like that.

It could be Jon, if one assumes that he has Targaryen blood. Or perhaps it would still apply to Jon, should he turn out to have Greyjoy blood. (The Greyjoys also maintain a family heritage connection to dragons.)

...there's absolutely no way Jon is Greyjoy. Whether he's a bastard or legitimate, he's very clearly Rhaegar's son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be Jon, if one assumes that he has Targaryen blood. Or perhaps it would still apply to Jon, should he turn out to have Greyjoy blood. (The Greyjoys also maintain a family heritage connection to dragons.)

Interesting, but I think there more chance that Jon is actually Ned's bastard than there is of Jon having any Greyjoy blood in him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The last Targ king was a mad tyrant and to assume people would forget that is faulty reasoning.

Only the nobles cared.

People remember Aerys as a good King but mad. In ACOK someone me tuned how in Arya's chapter as the Mountain was burning and torturing villages a man said that this wouldn't have happened used the King and Arya asked Robert? And he said no, good King Aerys.

The smallfolk did not seem like they wanted Aerys or any Targaryen gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...since when does the KG made decisions based on political viability? They know that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. They know that Jon is Rhaegar's only living son and heir. Ergo, Jon is the rightful king to the Targaryan throne. If the KG had successfully spirited Jon away to safety and then at some point announced to the kingdom that Rhaegar's heir lived, do you think that everyone would have been "...but where's the proof?" to three of the most famous and respected KG in history?

Yes, actually. Because if they'd spirited Jon away safely and waited for years before announcing to the Kingdom that THEY had the one true heir of the Targaryens, the ToJ KG would NOT be "three of the most famous and respected KG in history."

They would be known as the three KG who were happy to assist Aerys in burning noblemen and to assist Rhaegar in kidnapping a highborn maiden for his pleasure, but who somehow were AWOL when the real fighting went down for the King they had sworn to...who did not strike a single blow for that king at the Trident or at the Sack of King's Landing, where the King and the Royal family whom they ought to have been protecting were massacred. In other words, they would be considered craven men who avoided battle and then fled.

And if they started waving a baby around as their excuse for their flight, with only their word of honor that that kid is who they say he is, the likely reply is that their honor is shit after their nonparticipation in the war for Aerys, and that the baby they are using as the excuse for that nonparticipation is at best a bastard of Rhaegar's and more likely some beggar's whelp they bought as a cover story to try to hide their previous cowardice.

IMO, the ToJ 3 owe most of their good reputation to their heroic, outnumbered last stand at the Tower, and Ned's admiring account of it (ironically enough). Without that, they would not be remembered well at all...and IMO, the ToJ KG knew that. So when faced with the choice between the obvious heroic last stand and death, and ignominious survival with everyone ever after mocking their courage and doubting their honor, for the sake of a boy who has no throne and therefore isn't really king - I think they chose the heroic last stand.

BTW, have you found the quote that backs up the contention you made here?

Barristan says that if one KG is with the King, then they are all considered to be doing their duty.

Because I'm writing an addendum to the Reference Guide where I sum up the objections I have to the married(R + L) = J theory, and if Barristan really said that, it might change my objections.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×