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RumHam

R+L=J v. 102

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It could be Jon, if one assumes that he has Targaryen blood. Or perhaps it would still apply to Jon, should he turn out to have Greyjoy blood. (The Greyjoys also maintain a family heritage connection to dragons.)

You asked why R+L=J would matter.. It matters, if Jon is supposed to be the promised prince.

And Nagga and House Greyjoy are not related... The promised prince isn't simply connected to a dragon.. The promised prince is of the blood of the dragon. Meaning he/she descents from a "dragon".

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You asked why R+L=J would matter.. It matters, if Jon is supposed to be the promised prince.

And Nagga and House Greyjoy are not related... The promised prince isn't simply connected to a dragon.. The promised prince is of the blood of the dragon. Meaning he/she descents from a "dragon".

By my reading of Maester Aemon's commentary, the promised prince is a dragon. And may not be a prince at all...

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I have to respectfully disagree. I think it'd actually much more "fairy tale" if he was a legitimate prince in hiding as a bastard.

As for him needing a provable birthright to eventually become a king (and I agree with you, it's not certain he will end up taking a throne), I don't know that it will be as big of an issue by the end of the series. Social structures and hierarchies often shift and become less important and rigid during times of great upheaval. Ability rather than birth becomes paramount.

With the chaos and destruction that Westeros will face, who knows what their world and society will ultimately end up looking like? The iron throne may no longer exist, new kingdoms and boundaries could be created and Jon could end up king of a region where his birth is of no consequence (such as King Beyond the Wall) but his proven leadership abilities are. His royal blood then would be a delicious irony rather than an imperative.

Oh, hell, yeah. If Jon IS in fact the Prince that was Promised and helps put down the White Walker menace from beyond the wall, the last thing the Apocalypse survivors will be worrying about is whether their Messiah Savior was born legitimate or not.

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That's right! I forgot about that sexy dance your namesake did to get Uther all hot and bothered :leer:

And yes, sex with a man while he's still partially armored looked very uncomfortable and quite possibly dangerous, not my idea of a good time either :ack:

I'm pretty sure you'd need a band aid afterwards :laugh:

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Oh, hell, yeah. If Jon IS in fact the Prince that was Promised and helps put down the White Walker menace from beyond the wall, the last thing the Apocalypse survivors will be worrying about is whether their Messiah Savior was born legitimate or not.

1) I don't think the Apocalypse survivors are going to care one way or another. I agree with you. BUT

Rhaegar would have.

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Yes, why? Why did he "kidnap" Lyanna Stark? There are some that think he wanted a third head for the dragon so badly he would became mad when Elia couldn't have more children. Wouldn't it be better to, uh, "kidnap" a woman who already had babies? How did he knew Lyanna was fertile?

The whole "Rhaegar was obsessed with profecy" is only a red herring. Rhaegar didn't kidnapp Lyanna, he saved her from Aerys, who found out she was TKoTLT and became paranoid about the Starks since then.

They were not in love, Rhaegar hadn't seen Lyanna since the tourney at Harrenhal. It makes no sense to think that he suddenly realized he needed her for his "profecy". From what we know of the man, he was not impulsive, he would think things through.

On the bold, I have to respectfully disagree. While Selmy is a bit of stuffed shirt, and was in love with his own honor, I think GRRM deliberately uses his voice and POV for those reasons as a window into events.

Here are his thoughts on love, Rhaegar and Lyanna, and note he does NOT view love through a positive prism, but quite the opposite.

"Better for Daenaerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the Queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre had loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had both loved Sheira Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled....."

Selmy goes on to list the rest of the Targaryen loves and losses, and ends with this:

"Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly."

Barriston on Harrenhal:

"Perhaps by now he should have grown to such things. The Red Keep had it's secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The Year of the False Spring."

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whents tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

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By my reading of Maester Aemon's commentary, the promised prince is a dragon. And may not be a prince at all...

The Ghost of Harrenhal says that the Prince that was Promised will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, which is why they were forced to marry.

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The Ghost of Harrenhal says that the Prince that was Promised will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, which is why they were forced to marry.

Yeah, but have you ever met Prophecy? She's a fickle bitch... ;)

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The Ghost of Harrenhal High Heart says that the Prince that was Promised will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, which is why they were forced to marry.

Fixed that for you :)

By my reading of Maester Aemon's commentary, the promised prince is a dragon. And may not be a prince at all...

Maester Aemon does not seem to view it that way ;)

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One thing I have never understood - if Jon is trueborn, which appears to be the case because of the kingsguard presence at the tower of joy - how can he be the PRINCE who was promised. If he is trueborn, he is King as soon as he is born. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, the moment he is born he is King, no?

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On the bold, I have to respectfully disagree. While Selmy is a bit of stuffed shirt, and was in love with his own honor, I think GRRM deliberately uses his voice and POV for those reasons as a window into events.

Here are his thoughts on love, Rhaegar and Lyanna, and note he does NOT view love through a positive prism, but quite the opposite.

"Better for Daenaerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the Queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre had loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had both loved Sheira Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled....."

Selmy goes on to list the rest of the Targaryen loves and losses, and ends with this:

"Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly."

Barriston on Harrenhal:

"Perhaps by now he should have grown to such things. The Red Keep had it's secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The Year of the False Spring."

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whents tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

Great qoutes....

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna

Daemon Blackfyre had loved the first Daenerys,

Bittersteel and Bloodraven had both loved Sheira Seastar,

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain,

Selmy mentions "love" as a 1 way street the beloved is listed as an afterthought (the first Daenerys and Sheira) or a possession (His Lady and Her Captain).

Selmy also mentions that Rheagar did not trust him as Rhaegar trusted Dayne

The Red Keep had it's secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne

Here is an interesting quote...

If he(Daario) loved you, he would come carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar had carried off his northern girl--Dany aDwD page 672

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One thing I have never understood - if Jon is trueborn, which appears to be the case because of the kingsguard presence at the tower of joy - how can he be the PRINCE who was promised. If he is trueborn, he is King as soon as he is born. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, the moment he is born he is King, no?

Correct... kind of... we have an approximate date for Jon's birth... that does not exclude him being born before the sack... 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... and Dany born 9 months after her flight... which was before sack but after the Trident.

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One thing I have never understood - if Jon is trueborn, which appears to be the case because of the kingsguard presence at the tower of joy - how can he be the PRINCE who was promised. If he is trueborn, he is King as soon as he is born. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, the moment he is born he is King, no?

He would have been born with the title of prince, if the news of Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar's death reached ToJ after his birth. And if Aegon is truly Aegon, Jon is still a prince ;)

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Maester Aemon does not seem to view it that way ;)

You're right. Maester Aemon and I would probably disagree. Though if he'd had a bit more time, he might have come 'round to my position. (He might not, of course.) The problem I have with Aemon's idea that Dany is the PTWP is that, to arrive at that conclusion, he actually repeats the same "translation error" he's only just pointed out.

That's not to say that Dany (or Jon for that matter) couldn't turn out to be the Princess that was Promised. But if she does, it can only be because she qualifies - as a Dragon.

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Fixed that for you :)

Thanks, busy morning XD

One thing I have never understood - if Jon is trueborn, which appears to be the case because of the kingsguard presence at the tower of joy - how can he be the PRINCE who was promised. If he is trueborn, he is King as soon as he is born. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, the moment he is born he is King, no?

The definition of 'prince' is simply "the son of a monarch" or "male member of the royal family", so a king can also be considered a prince.

Yeah, but have you ever met Prophecy? She's a fickle bitch... ;)

In this series, they aren't fickle at all. They come true almost 100% of the time. If the Ghost of High Heart says "hey, the Prince that was Promised will come from this line", then it's going to happen.

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One thing I have never understood - if Jon is trueborn, which appears to be the case because of the kingsguard presence at the tower of joy - how can he be the PRINCE who was promised. If he is trueborn, he is King as soon as he is born. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, the moment he is born he is King, no?

There are 2-3 good answers to this question. Prince can be used as a catchall title for any kind of monarch. So, in that respect, there is no contradiction in referring to a king as a prince. Also, the Targaryens were no longer in possession of the IT. And, Jon may not have been crowned.

You're right. Maester Aemon and I would probably disagree. Though if he'd had a bit more time, he might have come 'round to my position. (He might not, of course.) The problem I have with Aemon's idea that Dany is the PTWP is that, to arrive at that conclusion, he actually repeats the same "translation error" he's only just pointed out.

That's not to say that Dany (or Jon for that matter) couldn't turn out to be the Princess that was Promised. But if she does, it can only be because she qualifies - as a Dragon.

Something like Valyrian nobility is my guess for a rough translation of the original text. For years people thought it meant prince, Aemon stated that it might have meant princess. Given the subsequent translation(s), I doubt that dragon was being used in a way that was compatible with bastard.

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A likely story! Remember, the crow's non-nonsense words are "Free" "King" "Kill" "Snow" "Dead", in that order. Where does "Free King" fit into a warning from Bloodraven?

Kill the boy and let the man be born . . .

Free the Targaryen king by killing the boy Snow . . .

Makes sense to me. ;)

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In this series, they aren't fickle at all. They come true almost 100% of the time. If the Ghost of High Heart says "hey, the Prince that was Promised will come from this line", then it's going to happen.

Thinking about it, you might be right. I'd have to go through all the prophecies in the books to see, and of course with most of them it's too soon to tell. But I don't think that's how it's supposed to be. Which might make it more likely that one of these major prophecies is due to bite someone's dick off.

Prophecy is one of those tropes of Fantasy that is fun to play with, but it can easily turn into a straightjacket if you're not careful. One of the themes of my fiction, since the very beginning, is that the characters must make their choices, for good or ill. And making choices is hard. There are prophecies in my Seven Kingdoms, but their meanings are often murky and misleading, and they seldom offer the characters much in the way of useful guidance.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Outland_Interview

1. Was Mirri Maz Duur telling the truth when she told Daenerys Targaryen that the latter could never have children again?

I am sure Dany would like to know. Prophecy can be a tricky business.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Numerous_Questions1

“Prophecy is like a half-trained mule,” he complained to Jorah Mormont. “It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.

“Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.” Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. “Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”

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Thanks, busy morning XD

The definition of 'prince' is simply "the son of a monarch" or "male member of the royal family", so a king can also be considered a prince.

In this series, they aren't fickle at all. They come true almost 100% of the time. If the Ghost of High Heart says "hey, the Prince that was Promised will come from this line", then it's going to happen.

The definition of 'prince' is simply "the son of a monarch" or "male member of the royal family", so a king can also be considered a prince.

If we would like to go out of the use in aSoIaF... let us do it...

prince

: a male member of a royal family; especially : the son or grandson of a king or queen

: a male ruler or monarch in some countries

: a man who is the best in his class, profession, etc.

1 a : monarch, king

b: the ruler of a principality or state
2 a male member of a royal family; especially : a son of the sovereign
3: a nobleman of varying rank and status
4: one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prince

In this series, they aren't fickle at all. They come true almost 100% of the time. If the Ghost of High Heart says "hey, the Prince that was Promised will come from this line", then it's going to happen.

“Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head."--Tyrion aDwD chapter 40

prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”Marwyn--aFfC chapter 45

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