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RumHam

R+L=J v. 102

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I don't recall seeing anything to date the "PtwP" prophecy back any farther than that. It's Azor Ahai "whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago," according to Melisandre (ASOS, Chapter 63 - DAVOS). But, so far anyway, these look like two different prophetic traditions.

Right or wrong, Melisandre (and Aemon) equates tPtwP with AA reborn. GRRM seems to imply that it is correct, though some argue it is from Melisandre's perspective that GRRM is speaking.

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Interesting that he took up A sword rather than THE sword. Perhaps he had determined that Lightbringer was a metaphor rather than an actual sword? If it's a metaphor, we might consider that a sword does not have to be a pointy metal stick, it can refer to a person too -- a sellsword, a sworn sword, etc.

Yes, Jon is a warrior. With a sword called Longclaw. Ravens have claws. It's all very simple, Rhaeven Targaryen is AA and TPTWP, Jon is the raven's "sword", Lightbringer.

I can no longer tell if you're joking or not...

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I can no longer tell if you're joking or not...

No, I honestly don't think that Mormont's raven is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and TPTWP. That would be very, very silly.

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No, I honestly don't think that Mormont's raven is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and TPTWP. That would be very, very silly.

Oh Sweet Seven, thank you. I was worried. Because on the one hand you're having an interesting and well thought out conversation with SOD but then you say things like, "ravens have claws!!!" and I get worried.

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The assertion that Ned lied to his spouse is based on him being an honorable man... a man too honorable to father a bastard... Ned is now--by the end of the paragraph--a compulsive liar.... not an honorable man. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honorable Therefore we have no basis to assert that Ned lied to Cat about Jon being his son....

I'm struggling a bit with this sentence. It seems almost as if you're arguing that Ned couldn't have been a liar because he lied to Cat.

Not a compulsive liar, just a liar. Ned himself admits this when he tells Arya that everyone lies. Because he's an honourable man, he tries to only lie for what he believes are honourable reasons -- to save a life, to protect his family, to keep a vow.

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Oh Sweet Seven, thank you. I was worried. Because on the one hand you're having an interesting and well thought out conversation with SOD but then you say things like, "ravens have claws!!!" and I get worried.

People have said sillier things in complete seriousness.

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Oh Sweet Seven, thank you. I was worried. Because on the one hand you're having an interesting and well thought out conversation with SOD but then you say things like, "ravens have claws!!!" and I get worried.

I have a slightly odd sense of humour that sometimes takes the forms of arguing the most bonkers viewpoint I can think of. If I start, it's probably best not to respond if you want me to shut up, because it only encourages me. I was excising a chunk of interesting but entirely tangential material about the connections between Bricrui's feast and Gawain and the Green Knight from my nearly finished Tower of Joy essay and got a little bored. Hopefully some people found the raven stuff amusing, but don't worry, I have no intention of running any further with it.

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I'm struggling a bit with this sentence. It seems almost as if you're arguing that Ned couldn't have been a liar because he lied to Cat.

Not a compulsive liar, just a liar. Ned himself admits this when he tells Arya that everyone lies. Because he's an honourable man, he tries to only lie for what he believes are honourable reasons -- to save a life, to protect his family, to keep a vow.

Robert tells Ned that "You could never lie for love nor honour, Ned Stark", but he's wrong. Ned lies, and lies repeatedly. He lies to himself to assuage his guilt, being a human not a superhuman. He lies to others, frequently. He lies to his own king, and curses himself for it. He lied to his wife for 14 years. He died with a lie on his lips. Ned's honour does not stop him from lying, it means he tries to lie for good reasons, and even if he thinks he is lying for a good reason, he still curses himself for it. "The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought". He spells this out to Arya:

mythomania 1. (Psychiatry) psychiatry the tendency to lie, exaggerate, or relate incredible imaginary adventures as if they had really happened, occurring in some mental disorders

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Compulsive+liar

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

you established the tendency to lie... you did so rather exahaustively.. it makes Ned a compulsive liar.---Note the definition of compulsive liar does not include the reasons for lying or the feelings about lying.

Accepting your assertion makes Ned a "compulsive liar" by definition.

Because he's an honourable man, he tries to only lie for what he believes are honourable reasons -- to save a life, to protect his family, to keep a vow.

If you had stopped there. I would agree with the assertion. You added another reason..

Kingmonkey, on 02 Sept 2014 - 2:06 PM, said:snapback.png

Yes, Ned lies repeatedly. Including little white lies to try to get Robert to do the right thing. I don't really understand the objection.

I objected because this lie that you asserted did not keep a vow or protect his family or save a life.

Ned now lies to save a life, protect his family, to keep a vow, and to manipulate. The addition of the last lie and the reason you gave abolishes any claim Ned had on "honor"

hon·or a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <a man of honor>

in·teg·ri·ty: the quality of being honest and fair

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/integrity

Honoring a vow and protecting family are honorable.... repeated lies to manipulate are not.

You asserted that Ned had lied to Cat---the lie was that Jon was Ned's son---- Jon could not have been Ned's son because Ned was too "honorable" to cheat on Cat.

You have shot and buried Ned's honor and with it the assertion that Jon is NOT Ned's son. That does mean that Ned did not necessarily lie to Catelyn about Jon being his son.

No you cannot use your assertions that Ned lied to Robert about his opinions of him as "to save a life"

Ned, kind of killed that when he said...

I will not be a part of murder Robert. Do as you will. Do not ask me to put my seal to it,--aGoT page 343

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The definition of 'prince' is simply "the son of a monarch" or "male member of the royal family", so a king can also be considered a prince.

Not according to Maggy (also a prophetess, and thus far one of the more specific and accurate ones). When Cersei asked her when she would wed the prince, she replied "Never. You will marry the king." Therefore, the king is NOT the prince, according to a genuine prophetess - therefore if Jon is King, he can't be the Prince that was Promised ;)

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Not according to Maggy (also a prophetess, and thus far one of the more specific and accurate ones). When Cersei asked her when she would wed the prince, she replied "Never. You will marry the king." Therefore, the king is NOT the prince, according to a genuine prophetess - therefore if Jon is King, he can't be the Prince that was Promised ;)

Robert was never the son of a monarch... Never a prince...

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you established the tendency to lie... you did so rather exahaustively.. it makes Ned a compulsive liar.---Note the definition of compulsive liar does not include the reasons for lying or the feelings about lying.

No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie. I don't suggest this at all. Quite the opposite, Ned has a compulsion to not lie that he has to overcome when he feels that a lie is actually the best outcome.

Ned makes questionable choices. I'd say that's what makes him interesting. Ned tries hard to be an honourable man, but sometimes does dishonourable things because reality gets in the way.

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Not according to Maggy (also a prophetess, and thus far one of the more specific and accurate ones). When Cersei asked her when she would wed the prince, she replied "Never. You will marry the king." Therefore, the king is NOT the prince, according to a genuine prophetess - therefore if Jon is King, he can't be the Prince that was Promised ;)

She was specific...this thousands-of-years-old prophecy is far from it.

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1) I don't think the Apocalypse survivors are going to care one way or another. I agree with you. BUT

Rhaegar would have.

Melisandre has shown that royal blood remains royal blood for the purposes of gods' magic, regardless of whether the child of that royal blood was engendered legitimately or not...and she proved it by working gods' magic with the bastard blood of Edric Storm. Why must we assume that Rhaegar (who studied a whole lot of this mystical crap) was ignorant of that principle? It doesn't take a huge stretch to imagine that your illegitimate child will have your royal blood as much as your legitimate child would...and the prophecy mentions bloodline, not marriage certificates.

Can't see why Rhaegar would insist on a marriage that would cause more problems politically than it would solve, when such is not required to fulfil the prophecy.

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Melisandre has shown that royal blood remains royal blood for the purposes of gods' magic, regardless of whether the child of that royal blood was engendered legitimately or not...and she proved it by working gods' magic with the bastard blood of Edric Storm. Why must we assume that Rhaegar (who studied a whole lot of this mystical crap) was ignorant of that principle? It doesn't take a huge stretch to imagine that your illegitimate child will have your royal blood as much as your legitimate child would...and the prophecy mentions bloodline, not marriage certificates.

Can't see why Rhaegar would insist on a marriage that would cause more problems politically than it would solve, when such is not required to fulfil the prophecy.

I never thought about that before, but it's a good point. The woods witch's prophecy said tPtwP would come from Areys & Rhaellas line, as in line of descendents.

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Melisandre has shown that royal blood remains royal blood for the purposes of gods' magic, regardless of whether the child of that royal blood was engendered legitimately or not...and she proved it by working gods' magic with the bastard blood of Edric Storm. Why must we assume that Rhaegar (who studied a whole lot of this mystical crap) was ignorant of that principle? It doesn't take a huge stretch to imagine that your illegitimate child will have your royal blood as much as your legitimate child would...and the prophecy mentions bloodline, not marriage certificates.

Can't see why Rhaegar would insist on a marriage that would cause more problems politically than it would solve, when such is not required to fulfil the prophecy.

I never thought about that before, but it's a good point. The woods witch's prophecy said tPtwP would come from Areys & Rhaellas line, as in line of descendents.

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No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie. I don't suggest this at all. Quite the opposite, Ned has a compulsion to not lie that he has to overcome when he feels that a lie is actually the best outcome.

Ned makes questionable choices. I'd say that's what makes him interesting. Ned tries hard to be an honourable man, but sometimes does dishonourable things because reality gets in the way.

No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie.

mythomania 1. (Psychiatry) psychiatry the tendency to lie, exaggerate, or relate incredible imaginary adventures as if they had really happened, occurring in some mental disorders

http://www.thefreedi...Compulsive liar

No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie.

but ok... compel

compel

verb (used with object), compelled, co

1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action:mpelling.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

You were kind enough to provide the forces that compel Ned to lie: keep a vow, protect family,, save a life, manipulate someone into doing the right thing.

I don't suggest this (Ned was a compulsive liar) at all. Quite the opposite, Ned has a compulsion to not lie

Robert tells Ned that "You could never lie for love nor honour, Ned Stark", but he's wrong. Ned lies, and lies repeatedly. He lies to himself to assuage his guilt, being a human not a superhuman. He lies to others, frequently. He lies to his own king, and curses himself for it. He lied to his wife for 14 years. He died with a lie on his lips. Ned's honour does not stop him from lying, it means he tries to lie for good reasons, and even if he thinks he is lying for a good reason, he still curses himself for it. "The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought". He spells this out to Arya

His cumpulsion not to lie... is not evidenced by Ned being truthful but by feeling bad about repeatedly and consistently... dying with a lie on his lips...

that he has to overcome when he feels that a lie is actually the best outcome.

Ned is apparently able to overcome quite a bit... and many things have a best outcome not involving the truth.

lie

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Lie?s=t

There is no qualifier for intentions in the definition of a lie.... You asserted Ned intentionally made false statements with the intent to get Robert to do the right thing. That is a lie.

Yes, Ned lies repeatedly. Including little white lies to try to get Robert to do the right thing. I don't really understand the objection.

You stated it was a lie... you gave the reasons for the lie...

Ned makes questionable choices. I'd say that's what makes him interesting. Ned tries hard to be an honourable man, but sometimes does dishonourable things because reality gets in the way.

I agree or close enough...

Turning Ned into a liar and a manipulator... are not very productive or interesting for that matter.

I was pretty opposed to it. I found that Ned's statements on what Robert was were an indicator of his questionable choices. Not Lies at all. Just Ned badly misjudging Robert--- but doing so honestly.

By the way... if Ned was lying to Robert... it was the only times he lied at all without feeling guilty or soiled after doing it....

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No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie.

mythomania 1. (Psychiatry) psychiatry the tendency to lie, exaggerate, or relate incredible imaginary adventures as if they had really happened, occurring in some mental disorders

http://www.thefreedi...Compulsive liar

No no! A compulsive liar is someone who has a compulsion to lie.

but ok... compel

compel

verb (used with object), compelled, co

1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action:mpelling.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

You were kind enough to provide the forces that compel Ned to lie: keep a vow, protect family,, save a life, manipulate someone into doing the right thing.

I don't suggest this (Ned was a compulsive liar) at all. Quite the opposite, Ned has a compulsion to not lie

His cumpulsion not to lie... is not evidenced by Ned being truthful but by feeling bad about repeatedly and consistently... dying with a lie on his lips...

that he has to overcome when he feels that a lie is actually the best outcome.

Ned is apparently able to overcome quite a bit... and many things have a best outcome not involving the truth.

lie

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Lie?s=t

There is no qualifier for intentions in the definition of a lie.... You asserted Ned intentionally made false statements with the intent to get Robert to do the right thing. That is a lie.

You stated it was a lie... you gave the reasons for the lie...

Ned makes questionable choices. I'd say that's what makes him interesting. Ned tries hard to be an honourable man, but sometimes does dishonourable things because reality gets in the way.

I agree or close enough...

Turning Ned into a liar and a manipulator... are not very productive or interesting for that matter.

I was pretty opposed to it. I found that Ned's statements on what Robert was were an indicator of his questionable choices. Not Lies at all. Just Ned badly misjudging Robert--- but doing so honestly.

Sorry, but being a compulsive liar means you have a pathological compulsion to lie even when no benefit accrues to yourself or anyone else for the lie - that is, you lie for the sake of lying.

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Melisandre has shown that royal blood remains royal blood for the purposes of gods' magic, regardless of whether the child of that royal blood was engendered legitimately or not...and she proved it by working gods' magic with the bastard blood of Edric Storm. Why must we assume that Rhaegar (who studied a whole lot of this mystical crap) was ignorant of that principle? It doesn't take a huge stretch to imagine that your illegitimate child will have your royal blood as much as your legitimate child would...and the prophecy mentions bloodline, not marriage certificates.

Can't see why Rhaegar would insist on a marriage that would cause more problems politically than it would solve, when such is not required to fulfil the prophecy.

...and having an illegitimate child by a noble woman WOULDN'T cause as many, if not more, problems than marrying her would?

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Right or wrong, Melisandre (and Aemon) equates tPtwP with AA reborn. GRRM seems to imply that it is correct, though some argue it is from Melisandre's perspective that GRRM is speaking.

Yes, I think the jury is still out on that. The prophecies may concern a related set of figures and events, or even the same set of figures and events - but that wouldn't necessarily mean these two phrases refer to the same person.

For one thing, if I'm right that it is a Dragon that was promised... well, we already have both AA and a dragon in the prophecy from Asshai. Perhaps the dragon that was promised will also be wakened from stone by AAR? Who knows...

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...and having an illegitimate child by a noble woman WOULDN'T cause as many, if not more, problems than marrying her would?

Well, we never heard of Edric Storm causing much of a problem for Bob.

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