Recovering forum addict Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I actually came into this thread to see if Sweden has a party representing the extreme-right as is becoming more common in the EU. I'm glad to see you guys haven't gotten that bad yet. They've been in the parliament for the last 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 They've been in the parliament for the last 4 years. Yep, although most of them aren't as extreme as the Greek right-wingers, SD is pretty much a right-wing social conservative racist party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalThor Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 But for Sweden, many people would characterise the Party of the Swedes as extreme right wing. (I no longer find these terms useful.)I may be wrong but I think I would classify your nice people as ultra-nationalists whereas these nice people are outright neo-Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowKnight Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Everything north of Uppsala is just trees, reindeers, lapps and outhouses. And that's just the way we like it, thank you very much :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Swedish coalitions are pretty basic compared to Finnish. Maybe I should make a thread when we have elections next April. I seriously have never understood your coalition arrangements. Coalitions of Right and Left against the Centre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The Sweden Democrats are well aligned with, say, the Danish social democrats on almost all points, dreaming of something like Canadian immigration policies, so from an international perspective, I believe it’s misleading to label them as “right-wing social conservative racists”. That’s why I find these terms to useless particularly when discussing with foreigners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I may be wrong but I think I would classify your nice people as ultra-nationalists whereas these nice people are outright neo-Nazis. Well, nationalism is an interesting term. The US, for instance, is a nationalist country where the unifying concepts of nation replaces the (original) unifying concept of Volk or extended family. The latter provides easy social cohesion for depressing reasons of kinship altruism, but the former can take its place. The Sweden Democrats are very much nationalist in the sense that they advocate an inclusive “open Swedishness” where everybody is welcome provided they are loyal to the nation. The Party of the Swedes, on the other hand, explicitly presupposes shared ethnicity. In the framing I just gave that is not nationalism, but some kind of Völkischheit. But there are many ways of defining these terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isalie Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 We need to take a cue from the US politics thread and start hating each other more in here :( Anyway, I'm voting tomorrow, go Greens! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 The Sweden Democrats are well aligned with, say, the Danish social democrats on almost all points, dreaming of something like Canadian immigration policies, so from an international perspective, I believe it’s misleading to label them as “right-wing social conservative racists”. That’s why I find these terms to useless particularly when discussing with foreigners. Bwuh? How did you reach this conclusion? Their voting record is aligned with the centre-right government. I have no idea where the Danish socialdemocrats stand, but if SD is like the Danish Socialdemocrats I'd say the Danish Socialdemocrats aren't really the same as the Swedish ones. DN's survey lists that SD votes with the Alliance in 8-9 cases out of 10. Regardless of how you view this, SD is not a Socialdemocratic party. They don't support socialdemocratic policies, they don't support that type of politics. In addition to this, these standpoints from their own party information available to everyone online and their parliament voting record should make it clear that SD is a social conservative party. They are not socialdemocrats and in any way progressive: * it is possible to read that SD prefers the nuclear family over other alternatives, that they are gender essentialists, that they are against a plethora of LGBTQI positive legislation etc. * they label themselves "conservative" even if they want to stand outside the bloc politics * they want to further lower taxes (femte jobbskatteavdraget) * school grades at an earlier age than today * they have voted with the alliance when it comes to selling state owned companies (i.e. privatisation) * they are strongly against LAS and want to make it easier for employers to fire employees * against unions (or at the very least a "troubled relationship with") * want to keep Fas 3 To name a few. (I love their bonkers idea to "ban import of animal products from animals who have suffered". It's a nice idea but so very far from reality tho. Still nice. ) Long list of stuff on how SD has voted. These are of course all valid standpoints, but they are not Socialdemocrat and they are not progressive. At all. You might also note that none of these issues have to do with immigration. This is standard right/left, reactionary/progressive stuff. Crystal clear. EDIT: And mind you, I am not against SD existing as a political party. I think they should. I also think that people should be allowed to call them on their bullshit, so in this I think we are in agreement. They're still not a socialdemocratic party tho. :) EDIT2: I wonder if they main confusion here stems from how SD acts in issues on tax. They seem to be ambivalent and to want to spend like the left but save like the right. Basically a populist position, but one that could potentially be profitable for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 These are of course all valid standpoints, but they are not Socialdemocrat and they are not progressive. At all. I never said they were progressive. They are conservatives, and self-identify as such. They dream of the Sweden built by the Social Democrats in the 60s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I have no idea where the Danish socialdemocrats stand, but if SD is like the Danish Socialdemocrats I'd say the Danish Socialdemocrats aren't really the same as the Swedish ones. Indeed they are not. Always remember that Sweden is an utterly extreme country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 I never said they were progressive. They are conservatives, and self-identify as such. They dream of the Sweden built by the Social Democrats in the 60s. You mean the Social democrats of the 60s had a problematic relationship with the trade unions and voted with the right in 8-9 issues out of 10? If anything, the Socialdemocrats of today are *more rightwing* than the Socialdemocrats in the 60s, who would never have dreamt about privatising things like the railroad, care homes for the elderly and out schools. My personal main beef with the Socialdemocrats is that they are too far to the right these days and that they have forgotten their roots and what they used to stand for (equality, solidarity, progressive taxation, dismantling of the class system, a strong public sector). These things are cornerstones in socialdemocratic thinking, and SD isn't doing that. They may dream of the Sweden that existed in the 1960s, I do not deny that, but my main point is: they are not trying to GET to Sweden in the 1960s, or at least their policies are totally different from the ones that got Sweden to where it was. In many important cases, like when it comes to employee protection and relationships with trade unions and old socialist stances like solidarity, they run 100% counter to any classic leftist stance. Nothing can change that. They also voted against odd hour childcare for shift working parents, for instance. And against lower tax on pensions (which is definitely progressive taxation, since pensions are generally lower or much lower than income from work). So to me, it still seems extremely far fetched to claim they are a socialdemocratic party, in anything but their own dreams perhaps. Practically, they do not vote in a way that would be consistent with socialdemocrats in the 60s, 70s or any other time. First and foremost, the socialdemocrats was the party of the Trade unions, and SD are no friends to Trade unions, workers or lower paid people. While you might, with some tinkering, get the social policies to fit with the socialdemocrats of the 60s (although that comparison is interesting if we then also compare the 1960s to 1910 as some sort of social progression milestone: if you are a progressive at a certain point in time, does that make you automatically reactionary if you are teleported in time to 50 years in the future?) the policies related to trade unions, work, workers and people on low incomes would be far harder to fit and often completely impossible. Today the Socialdemocrats can't even decided whether they should allow private companies to run off with tax money. Would Olof Palme have voted SD? Indeed they are not. Always remember that Sweden is an utterly extreme country. In a global setting, absolutely, but that is hardly neither here nor there when we're comparing our own parties now to our own parties 50 years ago. Still domestic issues. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The Sweden Democrats are well aligned with, say, the Danish social democrats on almost all points, dreaming of something like Canadian immigration policies, so from an international perspective, I believe it’s misleading to label them as “right-wing social conservative racists”. That’s why I find these terms to useless particularly when discussing with foreigners. If the danish social democrats originated as an actual neo-nazi group, sure. Their ideological core is clearly some form of right-wing conservative nationalism (I wouldn't quite classify them among the real "far right" anymore, even though they originated there) Well, nationalism is an interesting term. The US, for instance, is a nationalist country where the unifying concepts of nation replaces the (original) unifying concept of Volk or extended family. The latter provides easy social cohesion for depressing reasons of kinship altruism, but the former can take its place. That's... Not really how it has worked, historically. (not to mention your terms are fairly confusing) "Nation" is not a replacement for "Volk", the latter is an alternate interpretation of the former. Nations an be defined ethnically, politically, linguistically, or in pretty much any form imaginable. (most actual textbooks give up and pretty much go "A nation is any group of people that identifies itself as such") Nor is there some kind of linear progression in how national identities are created. They're consistently redefined, and often differently so by different groups. EDIT: On a lighter note, now you can know what i would be like if Rheinfeldt was your boyfriend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 EDIT: On a lighter note, now you can know what i would be like if Rheinfeldt was your boyfriend. Freaky. I almost prefer Göran Persson dancing with Doris the cow. EDIT: and if we're digging up the real fun stuff about politicians, here's a dig at our beloved Norwegian neighbours in the now infamous "NORWAY IS THE LAST SOVIET STATE". PS. Can you still offer us a job? :P We need to take a cue from the US politics thread and start hating each other more in here :( Anyway, I'm voting tomorrow, go Greens! ;) I thought we were too busy taking cheap potshots at the Norwegians for that? :p After all they inflicted Knausgård on us (omg guys how could you?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Freaky. I almost prefer Göran Persson dancing with Doris the cow. EDIT: and if we're digging up the real fun stuff about politicians, here's a dig at our beloved Norwegian neighbours in the now infamous "NORWAY IS THE LAST SOVIET STATE". PS. Can you still offer us a job? :P I thought we were too busy taking cheap potshots at the Norwegians for that? :P After all they inflicted Knausgård on us (omg guys how could you?). I prefer him singing evangelical songs. (people never stopped making fun of him for wnating to be a priest as a kid...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isalie Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I prefer him singing evangelical songs. (people never stopped making fun of him for wnating to be a priest as a kid...) That link just brought you back to the top of the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 That link just brought you back to the top of the page. Fixed. For more prime-minister singing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 I prefer him singing evangelical songs. (people never stopped making fun of him for wnating to be a priest as a kid...) OMG. :lol: Love that it is posted by ateister.se too, wth? :lol: My dad is a convinced atheist but he loves playing "Pärleporten" on guitar and he's pretty fond of "Spårvagnen till himmelen" as well. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It is a very nice tune Love that it is posted by ateister.se too, wth? :lol:. "If Göran Persson is a priest there can be no God!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 f "Spårvagnen till himmelen" a I once had a summer job at the Old Folks home. One of them had some kind o mix-tape of evangelical songs he ran on repeat. ALL. DAY. LONG: That song was on it :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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