R+L=J v.103

[TheLastStark]

The king must have one kingsguard with him at all times for the kingsguard to be fulfilling their vows. I do not even know where this one is supposed to have come from.

:agree:

[Anath]

I'm not sure how being the product of marital rape is a subversion of any trope, to be honest.

Because the common trope is that there is love involved in creating the special one. Or at least, a kingly father who was not off his rocker.

Citation? I couldn't find anything in the books that made the claim that Rhaella was infertile or had any difficulty bearing children. Now Elia, on the other hand, she was. But I found nothing describing Rhaella as such.

The primary duty of any noblewoman was to give her husband heirs. Rhaella had exactly 2 children in the years that were best for reproduction. With 16 year gap between them. She was not infertile but she clearly had difficulties bearing children because she simply didn't bear them. Hence the search for a bride with Valyrian blood - Rhaella was unable to give Rhaegar one. And the very fact that after failing in her duty (that is the argument made for Elia, isn't it?) in her best years, she was suddenly pregnant in her 40s or at least close to 40 is a miracle by itself in the minds of the people from that age. It's like Louis XIV - he was considered a miracle child because his mother was at the ripe old age of 37 when she gave birth.

...still not seeing how this is a miracle. Rhaella's husband raped her. She got pregnant. She had a kid and died giving birth. Not very miraculous.

Miracle children are often associated with great love, unusual events, or if you take Rand al-Thor, prophecies linked to their birth. There was none for Dany. And rape is virtually never a thing in creating the miracle child. It's a barren queen (Rhaella almost fits) or a conception without sex as we know it (Zeus comes to mind. Does this guy have a semi-mortal child conceived in the normal way? I can't think of one. There was always illusions involved.)

Wait, what? She didn't have any advisors because her family had been deposed and they were broke and had no money. Neither she nor Viserys got special treatment after Darry died and they were kicked out. But then she was treated VERY special when she got married to Drago and even more so when she had some dragons.

So? She still didn't get any special advisors. Basically, she didn't get anyone because even when some people came to them, they came to Viserys. Even in their exile, he was the important one.

...how many other Targaryans have tried to wake dragons lately? You know, since magic came back into the world?

Does it matter? The magic might have come back specifically for the one who was not planned or expected to be able to wake them. It was not the magic alone, it was a set of circumstances that aligned for Dany and no other Targaryen.

I really see no subversions, tbh. The only real subversion I see in her storyline is that she WASN'T a great ruler of Mereen and made a mess of it. But her story from page one up until that point was trope after trope after trope.

Personally, I find Jon's story more like a string of tropes, with only one difference - he makes his own choices. Good enough for me to think he'll be important in the story, just not the way Rhaegar planned his prophecy-love-erotic-whatever child would be.

I don't think she'll be a failure. I don't think she'll be on the IT. I think she'll go back to Essos and rule there.

I hope so. But somehow, I can see her try the IT before and making a sufficient mess of it to give her successor - whoever that might be - years of working their ass off. I can't see her learning from her mistakes without making even more terrible ones.

[RumHam]

In just fifty four days the worldbook will be out. I know the first thing I'm doing is turning to the Grasslands section to look for this:

@westerosorg: The history of the "Grasslands" includes a whopper of a detail... or a whopper of a red herring... #GRRM #WorldOfIceAndFire #PtwP #ASoIaF

Edit: anything linking the Dothraki Sea and the Prince that was Promised seems like it would likely be Daenerys related.

[BearQueen87]

In just fifty four days the worldbook will be out. I know the first thing I'm doing is turning to the Grasslands section to look for this:

Yay! More fun!

[MoIaF]

In just fifty four days the worldbook will be out. I know the first thing I'm doing is turning to the Grasslands section to look for this:

Edit: anything linking the Dothraki Sea and the Prince that was Promised seems like it would likely be Daenerys related.

Ooh, I'd forgotten about that.

I'm of the mind that the prophecy of the Stallion the Mounts the World is a version of the Prince that was Promise prophecy:

As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."

The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

[stateofdissipation]

:agree:

I get that the other assertions have some basis in text. But all of them are just one way to take... the passage

Robert will never keep to one bed=/=I will run away at the first opportunity

Once=/=in front of a round tower with the red mountains of Dorne at their backs.

Loyal to the end=/=a stickler for the rules---it also kind of ignores the irony and sarcasm.

in the context of a dream, a fever dream at that=/=my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy---the former is at least GRRM... but why bring it up if it is not followed?

I am not saying the interpretations are invalid... they may be. It is that they are used in place of text and largely without the text that supports them.

For a long time I was under the impression that the interpretations were actually in the text...then somebody asked for a reference... and I looked for it. How hard could it be? two or three days later... endless wiki, google, ssm searches, dozens of chapters reread. to conclude... it really did not exist.

anyhow... after that. I decided to avoid this practice ... that I still do not have a term to describe.

[sj4iy]

Because the common trope is that there is love involved in creating the special one. Or at least, a kingly father who was not off his rocker.

I don't see it as subverting a trope, tbh. I don't think we are supposed to glean anything from the fact that she was born out of rape instead of out of love.

The primary duty of any noblewoman was to give her husband heirs. Rhaella had exactly 2 children in the years that were best for reproduction. With 16 year gap between them. She was not infertile but she clearly had difficulties bearing children because she simply didn't bear them. Hence the search for a bride with Valyrian blood - Rhaella was unable to give Rhaegar one. And the very fact that after failing in her duty (that is the argument made for Elia, isn't it?) in her best years, she was suddenly pregnant in her 40s or at least close to 40 is a miracle by itself in the minds of the people from that age. It's like Louis XIV - he was considered a miracle child because his mother was at the ripe old age of 37 when she gave birth.

Problems or not, I'm not want to throw the word 'miracle' around for something that happens very frequently in nature. My mom was told she would likely not have more children. Then she got pregnant with my sister. My sister wasn't a 'miracle', just unexpected.

Miracle children are often associated with great love, unusual events, or if you take Rand al-Thor, prophecies linked to their birth. There was none for Dany. And rape is virtually never a thing in creating the miracle child. It's a barren queen (Rhaella almost fits) or a conception without sex as we know it (Zeus comes to mind. Does this guy have a semi-mortal child conceived in the normal way? I can't think of one. There was always illusions involved.)

I'm not certain why you keep referring to her as a 'miracle' child. She's not a 'miracle' simply because she was born. Miracles have happened because of her, but she is not a miracle herself.

So? She still didn't get any special advisors. Basically, she didn't get anyone because even when some people came to them, they came to Viserys. Even in their exile, he was the important one.

That's completely untrue. Illyrio took them in because he could sell Dany to the Khal, not because of anything Viserys offered him. After she became khaleesi, she was the one treated like a queen, with Viserys being tossed aside.

Does it matter? The magic might have come back specifically for the one who was not planned or expected to be able to wake them. It was not the magic alone, it was a set of circumstances that aligned for Dany and no other Targaryen.

Uh, yes, it does. You can't say that she has performed a miracle that no one else could if there's someone else that could feasibly do it and just hasn't attempted it. She was the first to do it once magic returned to the world. That's important. She won't be the last if magic stays in the world.

Personally, I find Jon's story more like a string of tropes, with only one difference - he makes his own choices. Good enough for me to think he'll be important in the story, just not the way Rhaegar planned his prophecy-love-erotic-whatever child would be.

Jon's story is incredibly clichéd. It could easily be described as the typical hero-journey where the boy grows into a man. What has been changed is that his story actually questions what honor really is and whether or not it is really important in the end.

I hope so. But somehow, I can see her try the IT before and making a sufficient mess of it to give her successor - whoever that might be - years of working their ass off. I can't see her learning from her mistakes without making even more terrible ones.

I just don't think the story has been set up for Dany to ever take the Iron Throne. I think she will go to Westeros and fight the Others, but I believe she will know that her place is in Essos and return.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I do so appreciate the frequent use of the term "red herring" as a classification for every piece of text that counters a pet theory..... I would like to add that it is only a "red herring" if the aforementioned theory turns out to be correct. If it does not, the evidence of the theory was in fact the "red herring."

Maybe until the theory is revealed to be true or false we should stick with "clue."

I'm with you on the overuse of the phrase. However, there are at least two red herring in these books that Martin identifies with subtle word play jokes. They are:

1. Tansy of Stoney Sept - aka, "red-haired Tansy," or "the buxom red-haired innkeep"); and
2. Craster's Sons - a phrase that can literally be interpreted to mean "red herring."

[BearQueen87]

Ooh, I'd forgotten about that.

I'm of the mind that the prophecy of the Stallion the Mounts the World is a version of the Prince that was Promise prophecy:

As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."

The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

Maybe Jon and Dany are both TPTWP/AAR/TSTMTW, just different parts of those particulars "things". That will make everyone happy! ;)

[sj4iy]

Maybe Jon and Dany are both TPTWP/AAR/TSTMTW, just different parts of those particulars "things". That will make everyone happy! ;)

Wouldn't surprise me at all XD

[stateofdissipation]

After a reread of the Bael the bard story ... i just realized that Bael's bastard associated with blue winter roses became the Lord of Winterfell who met his demise because of the Boltons

The red wedding and Robb's decree legitimizing Jon and naming him heir make Jon a bastard associated with blue winter roses the Lord of Winterfell who met his demise because of the Boltons.

[Anath]

Problems or not, I'm not want to throw the word 'miracle' around for something that happens very frequently in nature. My mom was told she would likely not have more children. Then she got pregnant with my sister. My sister wasn't a 'miracle', just unexpected.

The Targaryens, with their colouring, aren't something that happens very frequently in nature. Neither is Westerosi climate. It's a medieval and fantasy setting and while a late pregnancy to a woman who only had 2 children in 24 years of marriage despite having every incense to have more isn't a miracle in our world, it is quite close to that in medieval and fantasy one. We see Cat thinking that she wasn't too old to give Ned another child when she was in her early 30s. Now, a first child in a woman's middle 30s isn't anything to marvel at but it was in the times the novels draw from.

That's completely untrue. Illyrio took them in because he could sell Dany to the Khal, not because of anything Viserys offered him. After she became khaleesi, she was the one treated like a queen, with Viserys being tossed aside.

See? Dany was nothing by herself, just an item to be sold. And later, she got the preferential treatment because she was the Khal's wife, not because of her being princess and so on.

Uh, yes, it does. You can't say that she has performed a miracle that no one else could if there's someone else that could feasibly do it and just hasn't attempted it. She was the first to do it once magic returned to the world. That's important. She won't be the last if magic stays in the world.

Yes, she was the first one the right circumstances aligned for. I can and do say it. Why didn't circumstances align for Viserys, Jon, or Viserys Plum? She might well be the last. Granted, she might not be.

Jon's story is incredibly clichéd. It could easily be described as the typical hero-journey where the boy grows into a man. What has been changed is that his story actually questions what honor really is and whether or not it is really important in the end.

I agree.

I just don't think the story has been set up for Dany to ever take the Iron Throne. I think she will go to Westeros and fight the Others, but I believe she will know that her place is in Essos and return.

I hope you're right. But I have never seen anything about her to show that she'd recognize she was meant for anything less than her birthright. Starting out with great promise and ending things in ashes looks more like her style. I hope she doesn't end up the Mad Queen. The fact that Cersei seems headed in this direction is reassuring. The series cannot accommodate two mad queens at the same time. I hope.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

These thread gets me pumped for the next book so hard.

That's what she said! (sorry couldnt resist)

Wait, Viserys was a prince or a king depending how you look at it, Drogo a khal and Rhaego a khalakka. I would say they all had kings blood.

Viserys was (obviously) crowned on Dragonstone before they fled across the Narrow Sea, which is why he retained the title 'King' until he died, even if it was Beggar King then finally Cart King...poor guy :( But he definitely has kingsblood.

In just fifty four days the worldbook will be out. I know the first thing I'm doing is turning to the Grasslands section to look for this:

Edit: anything linking the Dothraki Sea and the Prince that was Promised seems like it would likely be Daenerys related.

OMFG I am so excited!!! SO many things will be revealed, so many posters proved right and wrong! Oh it will be a glorious day. :)

[Alia of the knife]

I honestly forgot where we were.

[stateofdissipation]

I'm with you on the overuse of the phrase. However, there are at least two red herring in these books that Martin identifies with subtle word play jokes. They are:

1. Tansy of Stoney Sept - aka, "red-haired Tansy," or "the buxom red-haired innkeep"); and
2. Craster's Sons - a phrase that can literally be interpreted to mean "red herring."

I actually looked in to what a real "red herring" is... not in a literary sense.

There are no "red herrings" in nature... that is freaking irony on a stick. a term used to describe something that is misleading comes from an animal that does not exist.

Thanks for the pointing out a couple actual "nonexistent animals" in the text.

[Ser Leftwich]

The king must have one kingsguard with him at all times for the kingsguard to be fulfilling their vows. I do not even know where this one is supposed to have come from.

“Stand by your seat, ser.” Kettleblack complied. The other Sworn Brothers filed in one by one. “Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?”

“My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied.

“And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers.

“Will they keep him safe?”

“They will, my lord.”

“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured. - ASoS p.917

From this passage, that there is ritual and ceremony involved, if one of the KG is not with the King.

[TheLastStark]

“Stand by your seat, ser.” Kettleblack complied. The other Sworn Brothers filed in one by one. “Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?”

“My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied.

“And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers.

“Will they keep him safe?”

“They will, my lord.”

“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured. - ASoS p.917

From this passage, that there is ritual and ceremony involved, if one of the KG is not with the King.

Nothing specifically states that it needs to be one of the KG, it's just an assumption(probably right but still just an assumption).

Kingsguard during the reign of King Tommen I Baratheon (300AC)

• Ser Jaime Lannister, Lord Commander.
• Ser Loras Tyrell, rumored to be near death after the Siege of Dragonstone in 300AC.
• Ser Osmund Kettleblack, currently (300AC) in a dungeon cell.
• Ser Balon Swann, hunting Ser Gerold Dayne in Dorne, to avenge the death of Ser Arys Oakheart.
• Ser Meryn Trant.
• Ser Boros Blount, made Tommen's food taster.
• Ser {Arys Oakheart}, killed by Areo Hotah in Dorne in 300AC, seduced into helping a failed coup by Arianne Martell.
• Ser Robert Strong, raised to the Kingsguard after Oakheart's death. Doubts about his identity have arised amongst those at King Tommen's court (see Robert Strong)

And none of them are of the KG.

You just weakened a R+L got secretly married making Jon the heir point.

[laurbee]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker here (since this thread was in the 70s, so maybe not too long ago!)

First off this board helped me see the RLJ light that I missed when reading the series, so thanks guys! I for one think Jon is legitimate and will sit the IT eventually since he is so focused on duty and honor and all those wonderful things. I don't think he'll want to, but I do think he will do it because it will be what is required of him. Maybe I'm Disney-ing it up a little too much but I love the idea of a boy thinking he was a bastard and the lowest of the low the whole time when all along we was a king and ends up in his rightful place :P

Anyway, I had a question just to see what everyone thinks. I know both Jon and Dany are "ruling" in a sense in their most recent events, and both are having a hard time of it. Dany's having trouble with that Harpy business and no one really wanted to listen to Jon. Both have been the target of assassination plots as well. I think I saw someone mentioning how Dany's difficulty shows she wouldn't be able to rule Westeros, but to be devil's advocate, couldn't the same be said for Jon? Like I said, I do think he will sit the IT in the end, but I was just curious as to what everyone else makes of these situations. Foreshadowing? A way to show that both characters can (and maybe do) grow into competent rulers?

[TheLastStark]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker here (since this thread was in the 70s, so maybe not too long ago!)

First off this board helped me see the RLJ light that I missed when reading the series, so thanks guys! I for one think Jon is legitimate and will sit the IT eventually since he is so focused on duty and honor and all those wonderful things. I don't think he'll want to, but I do think he will do it because it will be what is required of him. Maybe I'm Disney-ing it up a little too much but I love the idea of a boy thinking he was a bastard and the lowest of the low the whole time when all along we was a king and ends up in his rightful place :P

Anyway, I had a question just to see what everyone thinks. I know both Jon and Dany are "ruling" in a sense in their most recent events, and both are having a hard time of it. Dany's having trouble with that Harpy business and no one really wanted to listen to Jon. Both have been the target of assassination plots as well. I think I saw someone mentioning how Dany's difficulty shows she wouldn't be able to rule Westeros, but to be devil's advocate, couldn't the same be said for Jon? Like I said, I do think he will sit the IT in the end, but I was just curious as to what everyone else makes of these situations. Foreshadowing? A way to show that both characters can (and maybe do) grow into competent rulers?

Welcome :cheers:

[sj4iy]

The Targaryens, with their colouring, aren't something that happens very frequently in nature. Neither is Westerosi climate. It's a medieval and fantasy setting and while a late pregnancy to a woman who only had 2 children in 24 years of marriage despite having every incense to have more isn't a miracle in our world, it is quite close to that in medieval and fantasy one. We see Cat thinking that she wasn't too old to give Ned another child when she was in her early 30s. Now, a first child in a woman's middle 30s isn't anything to marvel at but it was in the times the novels draw from.

Eh, I think that's making assumptions without any basis. I'm sure there were plenty of Targaryans who were fertile and plenty who weren't. Incest probably had more to do with that than anything else. It's still not a miracle...just something that happens.

See? Dany was nothing by herself, just an item to be sold. And later, she got the preferential treatment because she was the Khal's wife, not because of her being princess and so on.

She was wanted because of who she was. She was the daughter of the king, one of the last Targaryans. She was a prize. Had her family stayed in power, she still would have been a prize. That's how women were treated back then.

Yes, she was the first one the right circumstances aligned for. I can and do say it. Why didn't circumstances align for Viserys, Jon, or Viserys Plum? She might well be the last. Granted, she might not be.

I would say that Jon really hasn't had the opportunity to fulfill that last part of the prophecy...he doesn't even know he's a Targaryan yet. And I'm not so sure it will be literal, in any case.

Jon's story is incredibly clichéd. It could easily be described as the typical hero-journey where the boy grows into a man. What has been changed is that his story actually questions what honor really is and whether or not it is really important in the end.

I hope you're right. But I have never seen anything about her to show that she'd recognize she was meant for anything less than her birthright. Starting out with great promise and ending things in ashes looks more like her style. I hope she doesn't end up the Mad Queen. The fact that Cersei seems headed in this direction is reassuring. The series cannot accommodate two mad queens at the same time. I hope.

I don't think she's blind to sense. Just in denial, really. She does and doesn't want to know the truth of what happened to her father, but the narrative demands that she will at some point find out. She's not crazy, and she is very compassionate, so it's logical to think that she will stop hating the 'usurper's dogs' once she realizes what her brother Rhaegar did.