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R+L=J v.103


Jon Weirgaryen

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Re: It never says one KG must be with the King at all time.

That's true. But this series does not spell out everything for you. Look at when the Kings travel. Does he always have at least one KG with him? Answer: yes.

When Aerys goes to Duskendale: KG

When Robert travels North: KG

When Robert goes hunting: KG

When Dany (a world away) moves about her pyramid: One KG in the form of Barry, the previous LC of the KG in KL.

When Aerys stays in the Red Keep during the Rebellion: One KG in the form of Jaime (both for KG and political reasons)

Seriously. Hightower is a giant red flashing arrow.

Re: It never says one KG must be with the King at all time.

That's true. But this series does not spell out everything for you. Look at when the Kings travel. Does he always have at least one KG with him? Answer: yes.

When Aerys goes to Duskendale: KG

KG is killed Aerys goes months without a KG. Tywin authorizes Selmy to attempt a rescue.

When Robert travels North: KG

aGoT chapter 12... Ned and Robert ride in advance of the party with no KG

When Robert goes hunting: KG

When Dany (a world away) moves about her pyramid: One KG in the form of Barry, the previous LC of the KG in KL.

Selmy...If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858

When Aerys stays in the Red Keep during the Rebellion: One KG in the form of Jaime (both for KG and political reasons)

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells

or a false KG according to Ser Gerold...

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."---aFfC page 133

or a kingscrutch according to Rhaegar

Seriously. Hightower is a giant red flashing arrow.

Calling hightower a giant red flashing arrow... is somehow more appropriate than calling him a stickler for the rules... at least it does not ignore irony and sarcasm..

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Are you suggesting that the 3KG felt their duty to Viserys was fulfilled because they'd performed the appropriate ritual handover of duty by confirming that the king was protected by someone they trusted (the brother of a Kingsguard) in their absence?

Very interesting possibility! Nice spot.

... and ser Willem is a real brother to one of the KG. Much like the situation with Jaime and his idiots.

I'd guess Ned knew who was of the KG and who wasn't. And the KG knew he knew. Why would they reiterate something everyone knows? It sounds more like regret they couldn't be with Viserys and had to leave him with someone who wasn't a KG. This makes more sense if applied to the king and not a young prince who was already channeling Aerys, according to Selmy.

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... and ser Willem is a real brother to one of the KG. Much like the situation with Jaime and his idiots.

I think there's a big difference between:

King is in another room down the hall with two knights.

and

King is on the other side of the sea with one knight.

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And what do they say right after they acknowledge Darry as a good and true me: but not of the KG

So your saying that if they were given an order(protect Lyanna and child), knew Viserys was on Dragonstone, determined that he was safe at the moment(he was), that they would say "fuck our orders we need to go to him now"?

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I think there's a big difference between:

King is in another room down the hall with two knights.

and

King is on the other side of the sea with one knight.

And a whole fleet. And his mother who was collected enough to arrange a crowning ceremony for him, maybe. But that would be later. While Lyanna's fetus and later baby had exactly no onr except for their orders/vow//whatever.

For now, those who recognized the Targ rule had no king, be it Viserys or Jon. No one was crowned by the High Septon. In this lack of an established situation, the KG might have preferred their orders and their potential vow to Rhaegar to going to someone who was protected.

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So your saying that if they were given an order(protect Lyanna and child), knew Viserys was on Dragonstone, determined that he was safe at the moment(he was), that they would say "fuck our orders we need to go to him now"?

If Viserys is the king, then yes, one of them (Hightower) would have gone. The King is without KG. That is a no-no. And it's the middle of a war, Dragonstone hasn't been taken yet, but it obviously will be: Viserys isn't safe.

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Thanks, again though if they knew Darry(that's his name right?) was with Viserys, as they described "a good and true man", and they know that the royal fleet with a garrison of loyalist is with him, does that not count as the king being safe?

The point is that the ritual was not performed by Hightower, the LC of the KG. It is the difference between, 'ho hum, oh, ok, someone is with the king on DS, so he must be safe,' and 'ritual language, ceremony, and the letter of the law in the White Book.'

Which is a big difference for what we know of the White Bull's character.

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So your saying that if they were given an order(protect Lyanna and child), knew Viserys was on Dragonstone, determined that he was safe at the moment(he was), that they would say "fuck our orders we need to go to him now"?

Where do you get the 'determined he was safe' bit? Just because there was a good knight with him doesn't mean that he was safe under any circumstances. Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister just murdered the rest of the royal family, how is Viserys safe in their estimations?

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@BearQueen yes you have, but welcomes are always, well, welcomed! :rofl:





:rofl: , And true.




Thanks, again though if they knew Darry(that's his name right?) was with Viserys, as they described "a good and true man", and they know that the royal fleet with a garrison of loyalist is with him, does that not count as the king being safe?



For all we know the plan was to go to him as soon as Lyanna and her baby were up to it.




I don't know if that would count, but I think it's telling that they don't up and follow him. But you're right, the plan could have been to join up with them later once they could move Lyanna.





Mace Tyrell in the show is pretty useless and weak, is he like that in the book also?




He's a floater but at the same time no one wants to piss him off. And he's rich, so.


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If Viserys is the king, then yes, one of them (Hightower) would have gone. The King is without KG. That is a no-no. And it's the middle of a war, Dragonstone hasn't been taken yet, but it obviously will be: Viserys isn't safe.

Your probably right, but this is still under the assumption(not fact) that they knew everything before(and I mean days maybe even weeks) Ned arrived.

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One knight, plus the royal fleet, plus the loyal garrison(who turned out to not be loyal later).

And a whole fleet.

Aerys had just been betrayed by his 'loyal' hand, Tywin Lannister. Would you, as a KG, entrusted to do your duty and protect your king, trust anyone but the KG to protect the king if you were LC Hightower?

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The point is that the ritual was not performed by Hightower, the LC of the KG. It is the difference between, 'ho hum, oh, ok, someone is with the king on DS, so he must be safe,' and 'ritual language, ceremony, and the letter of the law in the White Book.'

Which is a big difference for what we know of the White Bull's character.

We don't know if the ritual was performed or not, so please stop with the sass and nonprovable statements.

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Your probably right, but this is still under the assumption(not fact) that they knew everything before(and I mean days maybe even weeks) Ned arrived.

I'll admit that. But given the language of the dream, I think it's a safe assumption and a logical one.

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Aerys had just been betrayed by his 'loyal' hand, Tywin Lannister. Would you, as a KG, entrusted to do your duty and protect your king, trust anyone but the KG to protect the king if you were LC Hightower?

Not fair, you add the "LC H".

But yes, I think they would trust a man who is brother of a KG.

Isn't kind of stated that Oswell Whent and his brother were together on making The Tourney of HH the parting point for Rhaegar's being crowned?

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And what do they say right after they acknowledge Darry as a good and true me: but not of the KG

He's a flip flopper. So you're an Unsullied? Be careful! Here there be spoilers!

Thanks, I've just started reading the first book, but I've watched all the episodes of the show. I'm doing it backwards, I know.

No worries, I like spoilers. I like to know what to expect before I read a book or watch a movie/show.

I think GRM should have Mace Tyrell meet a gruesome death for being such a lazy fat useless old fart

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Tywin wasn't the hand at the time.

True, But Pycelle does convince Aerys to open the gates to his loyal FRIEND, Tywin Lannister. So sj4iy's point stands, IMO

Not fair, you add the "LC H".

But yes, I think they would trust a man who is brother of a KG.

Isn't kind of stated that Oswell Whent and his brother were together on making The Tourney of HH the parting point for Rhaegar's being crowned?

They would trust the brother to watch Viserys, but once the King is without a KG, then a KG is required.

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