R+L=J v.103

[TheLastStark]

Not fair, you add the "LC H".

But yes, I think they would trust a man who is brother of a KG.

Isn't kind of stated that Oswell Whent and his brother were together on making The Tourney of HH the parting point for Rhaegar's being crowned?

Good point

[sj4iy]

Not fair, you add the "LC H".

But yes, I think they would trust a man who is brother of a KG.

Isn't kind of stated that Oswell Whent and his brother were together on making The Tourney of HH the parting point for Rhaegar's being crowned?

I don't see Hightower entrusting the continued care of his rightful king to a man who isn't of the KG. That just doesn't ring true to me at all. What's the point of the KG if you aren't going to protect the King? If you're just going to be like "oh, well, someone else got this, I'm sticking here". That absolutely doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Anath]

Aerys had just been betrayed by his 'loyal' hand, Tywin Lannister. Would you, as a KG, entrusted to do your duty and protect your king, trust anyone but the KG to protect the king if you were LC Hightower?

With the brother of the man who was killed in defense of the Targs? On the ancestral seat of the Targaryens? When the alternative is leaving a pregnant woman and then a sick woman and a baby to possibly die in breach of my orders and possible oath? I think I'd trust Ser Willem, especially given the fact that if he intends to betray the king and his mother, he'll do it before they can consolidate what's left of their forces. He won't wait for me to cross half the continent to get to them before committing his betrayal. While this baby and his mother are here and well, I can defend them like, now. Or wait for her to die which would set me free to leave with the child and go to the king.

[BearQueen87]

Good point

Again, Hightower would trust that Darry would not kill Viserys or betray him, but Darry is not of the KG. If Viserys is the King, he needs a KG and Darry is not that.

[TheLastStark]

I'll admit that. But given the language of the dream, I think it's a safe assumption and a logical one.

My whole argument with the language of the dream is that Ned doesn't comment on tone or facial expressions, it's just assumed by R+L=J loyalist that they were up to date with everything in the rebellion. Those 3 KG strike me as the kind to hide their emotions(think of all the fucked up shit they saw while being around Areys) and all of a sudden now they would get teary eyed? or upset? or start yelling? If anything they have been desensitized by everything they've seen up till then, and able to hide their true emotions from others.

[Anath]

Again, Hightower would trust that Darry would not kill Viserys or betray him, but Darry is not of the KG. If Viserys is the King, he needs a KG and Darry is not that.

Yet. Darry is not that yet. Viserys needs 7 KG and he won't have them anyway with the current occupants of the spots. They are 4. Hightower might be reasonably expecting that Darry will be the first one Rhaella will choose and he'll be needed only to formalize the event. At which point Darry's loyalty is not in question. A future KG would be expected to be just as loyal as a current one.

[TheLastStark]

Again, Hightower would trust that Darry would not kill Viserys or betray him, but Darry is not of the KG. If Viserys is the King, he needs a KG and Darry is not that.

Another good point, but for the sake of argument, if the 3 KG had just found out about Viserys from Ned, would they just leave Ned be and try and make for Dragonstone? Would Ned let them?

[stateofdissipation]

I just want to say I appreciate the gratuitous use of these #hashtags. #TeamKingJon

While Ned's dream is a fever dream, it is a recurring dream, one that has happened presumably when he had all of his wits about him. While a dream is not usually something to take literally, I think GRRM intends for it to help readers get clues about Jon's true parentage and the battle that happened at TOJ. All except for Howland Reed are dead and gone, and he has yet to show up though I think he will soon. Not only has the dream haunted him, but what else has haunted Ned? His sister Lyanna and the promise she got him to make right before she passed. To me it seems that we as readers are meant to take these two things in conjunction with one another and draw conclusions that they are related in some way, ie. Jon's parents. Whether they both end up being related or not remains to be seen, but both are clearly significant or they wouldn't bother the 1st novel's main protagonist so much.

Regarding the dream, the conversation shows that the KG there are fully aware of the results of the Trident and that Rhaegar has died. Regardless of whether they receive such news the same time as learning of the Sack, there was still a KG in KL. The key here is WHY would they ALL remain at TOJ? Something there had to be significant enough for them to remain even after Rhaegar died. Which is partially why I think they may have received both news at the same time. The question is from where, and from whom?

While Ned's dream is a fever dream,

"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.

it is a recurring dream,

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

one that has happened presumably when he had all of his wits about him.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.--aGoT page 412

While a dream is not usually something to take literally, I think GRRM intends for it to help readers get clues about Jon's true parentage and the battle that happened at TOJ.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

All except for Howland Reed are dead and gone,

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.--aGoT page 412

and he has yet to show up though I think he will soon.

Not only has the dream haunted him,

--unknown source for this assertion.

but what else has haunted Ned? His sister Lyanna and the promise she got him to make right before she passed.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40

To me it seems that we as readers are meant to take these two things in conjunction with one another and draw conclusions that they are related in some way, ie. Jon's parents. Whether they both end up being related or not remains to be seen, but both are clearly significant or they wouldn't bother the 1st novel's main protagonist so much.

Regarding the dream, the conversation shows that the KG there are fully aware of the results of the Trident and that Rhaegar has died.

--or that the KG were fully aware that the losers of a battle do not continue to advance into enemy territory.

Regardless of whether they receive such news the same time as learning of the Sack, there was still a KG in KL.

---no mention of news to the tower is mentioned in chapter 39 or elsewhere

The key here is WHY would they ALL remain at TOJ? Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Both answered by GRRM in 2003

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

[TheLastStark]

Yet. Darry is not that yet. Viserys needs 7 KG and he won't have them anyway with the current occupants of the spots. They are 4. Hightower might be reasonably expecting that Darry will be the first one Rhaella will choose and he'll be needed only to formalize the event. At which point Darry's loyalty is not in question. A future KG would be expected to be just as loyal as a current one.

I never thought of that, does the LC need to be there for the ceremony?

[laurbee]

But yes, I think they would trust a man who is brother of a KG.

To play devil's advocate, Tywin was the father of a KG, and then said KG acted in a way that completely went in the face of what the KG stands for. If they knew this by the time Ned arrived, it's a possibility that their trust in others, including family members, may not be as strong as prior to these events.

But I think if Viserys was king a KG would definitely go regardless of who he was with.

[Anath]

I never thought of that, does the LC need to be there for the ceremony?

According to Selmy's memories, yes, he does.

[son jnow]

"Our knees do not bend easily" in that funny voice lol

[BearQueen87]

I never thought of that, does the LC need to be there for the ceremony?

I don't think the LC needs to be there, but whether or not the LC needed to be there, Hightower clearly states: he is not of the KG. As of this moment, when we are talking, Darry is not KG.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, I think we're going circles with technicisms.

For instance, the KG left Aerys with Jaime. JAIME. The youngest of them all, and the most inexperienced was protecting the King. Wouldn't be reasonable that, in time of war, the BEST KG was always with the King? Because, really, if the rebels suddenly enter the RK, was Jaime meant to fight them all by himself? He wasn't there the swordman he is now, and he stayed with Aerys because Aerys thought Tywin wouldn't enter the city by keeping Jaime.

When Joffrey was poisoned, the KG didn't simply left him there and say "whatever, he's dying, let's protect Tommen". Tommen wasn't automatically King as soon as Joffrey died, and I'm sure neither was Jon. I don't think they assumed Jon or Viserys were "Kings", but they were simply "heirs" and either of them was a potential King. They stayed with Jon because they were there BECAUSE of Rhaegar, who was the Prince. Aerys was left with Jaime because he was safe inside the RK, an alleged safe place; and Viserys was with the Queen, also in a safe place, protected, with his mother. Considering Aegon was dead, they could have lied: yes, our Prince had a son, yes, he's legitimate, if they thought he was better than Viserys. Unless you all think the KG NEVER EVER lies or plot.

[TheLastStark]

According to Selmy's memories, yes, he does.

Quote please, there is too much info for me to remember all of this.

[laurbee]

The key here is WHY would they ALL remain at TOJ? Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Both answered by GRRM in 2003

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Thank you for the internet quote, I hadn't seen that. So essentially even after Rhaegar's passing they would continue to follow an order he gave.

When Joffrey was poisoned, the KG didn't simply left him there and say "whatever, he's dying, let's protect Tommen". Tommen wasn't automatically King as soon as Joffrey died, and I'm sure neither was Jon. I don't think they assumed Jon or Viserys were "Kings", but they were simply "heirs" and either of them was a potential King. They stayed with Jon because they were there BECAUSE of Rhaegar, who was the Prince. Aerys was left with Jaime because he was safe inside the RK, an alleged safe place; and Viserys was with the Queen, also in a safe place, protected, with his mother. Considering Aegon was dead, they could have lied: yes, our Prince had a son, yes, he's legitimate, if they thought he was better than Viserys. Unless you all think the KG NEVER EVER lies or plot.

I think what confuses myself and others is whether the orders Rhaegar gave would remain in place even after he died. I'm guessing they do considering they remained where they were, but at the same time I think there may have been more there than that. Not necessarily assuming one is King or not, but knowing the line of succession and that Jon was (presumably) a legitimate heir to Rhaegar, his claim would be stronger than Viserys.

[Kingmonkey]

I won't argue about the best positions to sharpen your blade, even though I find it easiest to do it standing.

Do you brace against your thigh? What length blade are you used to? Single or double edged? Yes, don't worry, I have no intention of arguing, just curiosity.

[BearQueen87]

Ok, I think we're going circles with technicisms.

For instance, the KG left Aerys with Jaime. JAIME. The youngest of them all, and the most inexperienced was protecting the King. Wouldn't be reasonable that, in time of war, the BEST KG was always with the King? Because, really, if the rebels suddenly enter the RK, was Jaime meant to fight them all by himself? He wasn't there the swordman he is now, and he stayed with Aerys because Aerys thought Tywin wouldn't enter the city by keeping Jaime.

That wasn't the KG's decision. That was Aerys and the KG do not question the King. "You swore a vow...not to judge him"

When Joffrey was poisoned, the KG didn't simply left him there and say "whatever, he's dying, let's protect Tommen". Tommen wasn't automatically King as soon as Joffrey died, and I'm sure neither was Jon

Yes Tommen was. Just like Joff was king the second Robert died.

Considering Aegon was dead, they could have lied: yes, our Prince had a son, yes, he's legitimate, if they thought he was better than Viserys. Unless you all think the KG NEVER EVER lies or plot.

So why didn't one of them go to Viserys who is also PRINCE?

[TheLastStark]

Ok, I think we're going circles with technicisms.

For instance, the KG left Aerys with Jaime. JAIME. The youngest of them all, and the most inexperienced was protecting the King. Wouldn't be reasonable that, in time of war, the BEST KG was always with the King? Because, really, if the rebels suddenly enter the RK, was Jaime meant to fight them all by himself? He wasn't there the swordman he is now, and he stayed with Aerys because Aerys thought Tywin wouldn't enter the city by keeping Jaime.

When Joffrey was poisoned, the KG didn't simply left him there and say "whatever, he's dying, let's protect Tommen". Tommen wasn't automatically King as soon as Joffrey died, and I'm sure neither was Jon. I don't think they assumed Jon or Viserys were "Kings", but they were simply "heirs" and either of them was a potential King. They stayed with Jon because they were there BECAUSE of Rhaegar, who was the Prince. Aerys was left with Jaime because he was safe inside the RK, an alleged safe place; and Viserys was with the Queen, also in a safe place, protected, with his mother. Considering Aegon was dead, they could have lied: yes, our Prince had a son, yes, he's legitimate, if they thought he was better than Viserys. Unless you all think the KG NEVER EVER lies or plot.

IIRC Hightower was sent out by Aerys to find Rhaegar(I'm assuming Dayne and Whent went with him) but never mentions his return. And Jaime was only there(as you said) because Aerys was afraid of Tywins potential betrayal.

[BearQueen87]

Thank you for the internet quote, I hadn't seen that. So essentially even after Rhaegar's passing they would continue to follow an order he gave.

Unless the Prime duty of the KG is in danger. Prime duty = protect the King. If Viserys is king, he's in danger on Dragonstone. One of them would have gone to him.