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R+L=J v.103


Jon Weirgaryen

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A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 1



A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 2




Perhaps it would be a good idea to add these to the first post, expand it a little bit to say that some people believe Jon is legitimate, and that even though the ToJ dream is a very frequent visitor here, there's other evidence that's discussed in other threads.



(I haven't read those threads in ages so I don't know how many quotes there are, and if they're all there.)



Perhaps it is even possible to add a second post (if needed and allowed) to the first page to put some quotes on, etc.


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Then the realm has no king now? Who is in charge of crowning?

I think the High Septon does the crowning

:blushing: Sorry, just saw the picture.

It's cool! I know it's hard to tell gender on an internet forum.

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Lol didn't he already say he knows your objection?

Yeah but I think that's the first time I made that particular objection, which was only a joke.

Unless crowned, no one theoretically is a king.

Not even Stannis, nor is Dany queen of Westeros.

I agree! But then you talk to people about the Tower of Joy and it's either "Jon is king so they had to guard him" or "Then why didn't they go to king Viserys?" Granted, we now know from the app that Viserys was crowned at some point. We don't know that the Kingsguard at the tower knew that. We don't know who crowned him, and you could question whether they had the authority to do that. Robert and his rebels had pretty much won the war at that point. Wow I just got a notice that six new replies were added while I was typing this.

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I think the High Septon does the crowning

He actually does a separate anointing ceremony that is also supposed to be important, at least in the eyes of the faithful. Aegon I famously didn't consider his rule to being until he was anointed. The High Septon may have crowned a few king, Baelor comes to mind. But like Aegon II was crowned by the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard. Wait I just fucked my own argument didn't I.

Ok. But it would still be pretty presumptuous for Hightower to crown Jon on his own. Especially since rebels had taken the throne.

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I agree! But then you talk to people about the Tower of Joy and it's either "Jon is king so they had to guard him" or "Then why didn't they go to king Viserys?" Granted, we now know from the app that Viserys was crowned at some point. We don't know that the Kingsguard at the tower knew that. We don't know who crowned him, and you could question whether they had the authority to do that. Robert and his rebels had pretty much won the war at that point. Wow I just got a notice that six new replies were added while I was typing this.

Why be so anal about those definitions, though?

If he's the heir/crown prince (I don't know if KG had the power to crown someone, but they could definitely keep him safe with their vows), then he's next in line, still not Viserys, so they didn't have to go there. End of discussion, really.

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Yeah but I think that's the first time I made that particular objection, which was only a joke.

I agree! But then you talk to people about the Tower of Joy and it's either "Jon is king so they had to guard him" or "Then why didn't they go to king Viserys?" Granted, we now know from the app that Viserys was crowned at some point. We don't know that the Kingsguard at the tower knew that. We don't know who crowned him, and you could question whether they had the authority to do that. Robert and his rebels had pretty much won the war at that point. Wow I just got a notice that six new replies were added while I was typing this.

Jon is king, but he didn't have the ceremony. But a ceremony does not a king make. It's important, but not the first and only requirement.

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Why be so anal about those definitions, though?

If he's the heir/crown prince (I don't know if KG had the power to crown someone, but they could definitely keep him safe with their vows), then he's next in line, still not Viserys, so they didn't have to go there.

I'm not sure how I'm being anal. Their job is to protect the king. The king recognized by most of Westeros at that point was Robert. Even if Jon was the rightful heir, I don't think he's king in any meaningful sense if nobody knows they are ruled by him. All this foreshadowing could be to him becoming the king later on, because of his blood or his deeds.

End of discussion, really.

It's a shame you didn't get here earlier you could have saved us all a lot of time.

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Jon is king, but he didn't have the ceremony. But a ceremony does not a king make. It's important, but not the first and only requirement.

Same with Viserys if he was king but not crowned yet. And an uncrowned king might be safe enough with a man they trusted and who was a viable candidate for Viserys' 4th KG.

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I'm not sure how I'm being anal. Their job is to protect the king. The king recognized by most of Westeros at that point was Robert. Even if Jon was the rightful heir, I don't think he's king in any meaningful sense if nobody knows they are ruled by him. All this foreshadowing could be to him becoming the king later on, because of his blood or his deeds.

NOOOOOOOOOOO. We said no more TOJ! ;)

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Ceremonies are everything. Rhaenys Targaryen was the legal Queen Regnant of Westeros upon the death of Jaehaerys I, yet the Realm still crowned her cousin Viserys.



The first Targaryen kings seem to have traveled to Oldtown to be anointed and crowned by the High Septon (confirmed for Aegon I and Aenys I). I assume that Maegor forced some High Septon to anoint him, too, or else history may not have considered him a rightful king of Westeros.



Jaehaerys I most likely also traveled to Oldtown to crowned and anointed there. Viserys I most likely demanded that the High Septon come to him. Neither claimant during the Dance was anointed by the High Septon, although Aegon II was anointed by Septon Eustace. The High Septon was in Oldtown, and 'too old and frail to make the journey' - most likely an excuse. I don't know if Rhaenyra was anointed by some septon as well during her coronation on Dragonstone, but I'd not be surprised if she forced Eustace to anoint her, too, after she had taken KL.



Later Targaryen kings would also have been anointed by the High Septons, and the whole thing would have gone a lot more easier after the High Septon resided in KL, too.



The Kingsguard clearly has sworn no vow to uphold the succession. It is also not their job to choose or crown a new king. Aerys II did name Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone, and perhaps he even recognized Prince Aegon as second in line to the Iron Throne, but he never confirmed/accepted/condoned Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna (if they did marry), nor did he recognize Rhaegar's child by Lyanna as his heir (however far removed).



Assuming only Rhaegar had died in the war, but the Targaryens had won, the line of succession would have been really complicated afterwards. Would it go Aerys > Aegon > Lyanna's son > Viserys > Rhaenys > Daenerys?



Or Aerys > Aegon > Viserys > Rhaenys > Daenerys > Lyanna's son (because a majority of the court thought that Rhaegar's second marriage was wrong, distasteful, and/or illegal)?



We really don't know that, but those three Kingsguard deciding that Lyanna's son was the true and rightful king just because he was - to their knowledge - the last surviving son of the late Prince of Dragonstone, would be a stretch.


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Sorry, I must have missed that. The thread did jump a lot of pages overnight.

It is going too fast, I am still reading page 5 and while I am typing this there are new articles I cannot read in such a hurry. Slow dowan, calm, doucement, tranquilo, langsam, sakte, easy, what have I missed? I wonder if I'll ever catch up.

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