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R+L=J v.103


Jon Weirgaryen

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Nope, Ned does not know of any other vow for the Kingsguard to be referring to than the Kingsguard's vow to protect and defend the king. If they aren't living up to the Kingsguard vow, then Ned has no basis for what he says about them being a shining example to the world.

Then why wouldn't someone have said so, instead of, "we were far away"?

Actually, we don't know what vows Ned knows about. After all, Lyanna's words to him might have been, "We tried to protect this child, Rhaegar had them swear a vow... Promise me, Ned."

What should have they said? I can't see what you mean.

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Earlier you object about how I shifted from Ned's perspective of offering an openning for the Kingsguard to withdraw, to the Kingsguard's perspective that Ned and his comrades are not a real threat to their success, or winning the battle. I think that may be because you simply read through too quickly to grasp that I had switched perspectives.

-Not sure where you got this from?

From Ned's perspective, it does not seem wise IMO to let three of the most dangerous knights in Westeros to leave and join Viserys on Dragonstone. And from the KL perspective, if they had just found out about Viserys on Dragonstone, and thought they were going to win the battle they would not stop and have a discussion about what to do next in front of the enemy, first kill them then worry about how to get there(All assuming that's where they wanted to go).

I've never sharpened a sword so I wouldn't know.

Probably

The kingsguard do not kneel to the king after taking their vows. Standing guard is their duty...

Though court protocol suggests many must bend the knee when the king or queen enter a place, the Kingsguard do not do so, standing guard as is their duty (IV: 349)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

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Earlier you object about how I shifted from Ned's perspective of offering an openning for the Kingsguard to withdraw, to the Kingsguard's perspective that Ned and his comrades are not a real threat to their success, or winning the battle. I think that may be because you simply read through too quickly to grasp that I had switched perspectives.

-Not sure where you got this from?

From Ned's perspective, it does not seem wise IMO to let three of the most dangerous knights in Westeros to leave and join Viserys on Dragonstone. And from the KL perspective, if they had just found out about Viserys on Dragonstone, and thought they were going to win the battle they would not stop and have a discussion about what to do next in front of the enemy, first kill them then worry about how to get there(All assuming that's where they wanted to go).

I've never sharpened a sword so I wouldn't know.

Probably

That's better, re:sword sharpening. So, now we cna see that Whent being on one knee is symbolic, and sharpening his sword is symbolic for something else.

Ned offered the Kingsguard a chance to withdraw to Dragonstone and take up guarding Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys. Somehow, it seems to me, that you conflated this with the Kingsguard not seeing Ned and his party as a legitimate threat to their winning the battle. I suggested that you may have read through too quickly to realize that it is in Ned's interest to find a way to get the Kingsguard to leave the field and allow him passage to his sister in the tower. The Kingsguard has a different priority, defend the tower and its contents from all who approach.

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Well, I never said anything at all about 'usurper' and what it meant, although it's obvious from this use that they are talking about someone taking the throne. I said they knew that Robert won the Battle at the Trident. They wouldn't have KNOWN THAT if someone else hadn't have told them. I think it's sort of ridiculous to claim that they didn't know anything that happened after that when they clearly knew up to THAT particular point and seem absolutely nonchalant about anything else Ned says. "Oh, well, I'll concede they knew part but not all!" No, they knew all of it somehow.

the Tyrells didn't seem to know about the sack, but somehow the 3 KG at a random tower found out? If knowledge of their whereabouts were that widely known, then Robert would've sent the army there for Lyanna. So who got the raven out or who got out and rode not for the Tyrells but the ToJ?

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Actually, we don't know what vows Ned knows about. After all, Lyanna's words to him might have been, "We tried to protect this child, Rhaegar had them swear a vow... Promise me, Ned."

What should have they said? I can't see what you mean.

If Lyanna revealed a vow, Ned would justify it in the dream. It is nonsense to say that he could say these Kingsguard were the height of honor and skill, if he doesn't know what they honored.

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Well, I never said anything at all about 'usurper' and what it meant, although it's obvious from this use that they are talking about someone taking the throne. I said they knew that Robert won the Battle at the Trident. They wouldn't have KNOWN THAT if someone else hadn't have told them. I think it's sort of ridiculous to claim that they didn't know anything that happened after that when they clearly knew up to THAT particular point and seem absolutely nonchalant about anything else Ned says. "Oh, well, I'll concede they knew part but not all!" No, they knew all of it somehow.

I said their tone, not that their use of the word usurper meant anything at all.

In any case, I'm not understanding what the point of this conversation is. Whether they found out before Ned came or after, they know what happened all the same. The question again is:

Do standing orders of a dead Crown Prince override the KG's duty to protect their king when they KNOW FOR A FACT that he is unprotected?

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That's better, re:sword sharpening. So, now we cna see that Whent being on one knee is symbolic, and sharpening his sword is symbolic for something else.

Ned offered the Kingsguard a chance to withdraw to Dragonstone and take up guarding Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys. Somehow, it seems to me, that you conflated this with the Kingsguard not seeing Ned and his party as a legitimate threat to their winning the battle. I suggested that you may have read through too quickly to realize that it is in Ned's interest to find a way to get the Kingsguard to leave the field and allow him passage to his sister in the tower. The Kingsguard has a different priority, defend the tower and its contents from all who approach.

Could be symbolic, but why just one KG?

Ok, now Ned offering them to leave so he can get to his sister faster makes sense, don't think you explained that(or it just went over my head).

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the Tyrells didn't seem to know about the sack, but somehow the 3 KG at a random tower found out? If knowledge of their whereabouts were that widely known, then Robert would've sent the army there for Lyanna. So who got the raven out or who got out and rode not for the Tyrells but the ToJ?

I never ever thought this, do you have a source?

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I said their tone, not that their use of the word usurper meant anything at all.

In any case, I'm not understanding what the point of this conversation is. Whether they found out before Ned came or after, they know what happened all the same. The question again is:

Do standing orders of a dead Crown Prince override the KG's duty to protect their king when they KNOW FOR A FACT that he is unprotected?

He was protected. He had the royal fleet and a garrison of loyalist.

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Could be symbolic, but why just one KG?

Ok, now Ned offering them to leave so he can get to his sister faster makes sense, don't think you explained that(or it just went over my head).

One or all, they are a unit, as can be seen in the dialog. Don't read that dialog quickly, or dismiss any of it. I am fairly certain that GRRM put great care and skill into it's page or so.

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If Lyanna revealed a vow, Ned would justify it in the dream. It is nonsense to say that he could say these Kingsguard were the height of honor and skill, if he doesn't know what they honored.

Ned is dreaming, he isn't testifying in a trial. Have you never had a recurring dream? I have had them and those reflecting particular episodes are the only ones I can remember. There are different variations to the main theme and they aren't all logical and lined up.

Anyway, Ned's dream is symbolic, not a memory. Not to be taken literally.

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Need to look for one, but they didn't bend the knee till Ned showed up so I'm assuming no, but of course I could be wrong.

Who are they going to surrender to? I suppose they could just go and surrender to Stannis if he lets them get that close . . . I don't think that Ned preceeds the news to the Tyrells by much, if at all. They will get their news by raven, then courier, since thye are in the field. ;)

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Ned is dreaming, he isn't testifying in a trial. Have you never had a recurring dream? I have had them and those reflecting particular episodes are the only ones I can remember. There are different variations to the main theme and they aren't all logical and lined up.

Anyway, Ned's dream is symbolic, not a memory. Not to be taken literally.

He dreams about his friends being with him, as they had been in life. He dreams clearly about the three Kingsguard. The dialog may not exactly match what was said that day, but it is enough to make sense to Ned. There is symbolism in the dream, to be sure. It is a dream that Ned has had before, an old dream. If you reread the beginning of that chapter, carefully, I believe that you may have a change of heart. ;)

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He dreams about his friends being with him, as they had been in life. He dreams clearly about the three Kingsguard. The dialog may not exactly match what was said that day, but it is enough to make sense to Ned. There is symbolism in the dream, to be sure. It is a dream that Ned has had before, an old dream. If you reread the beginning of that chapter, carefully, I believe that you may have a change of heart. ;)

Was just about to type something like this, but I'll just point to this and go "that"

In case people have missed this, Ygrain's clarity on the TOJ (from MtnLion's siggy) : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116524-rlj-v101/page-5#entry6191116

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Fair enough, but that point is the most referred to when they try and argue it even though there is no textual evidence(and I mean that the KG need to be with the king) to back it.

Jaime explains that there is a ceremony/ritual for specifically when the KG have a meeting and one of them can't be with the king.

It implies that there is a ceremony for meeting in the White Sword Tower or specifically meeting, not for whenever they feel like it. The language of the ToJ scene is such that the KG are having an administrative meeting.

And since Hightower did not call the meeting and specifically send Darry to protect the king and that it is only Darry, not more than one (2 Kettleblacks and 1 Garlan) knight doing the guarding, it seems less official that the ceremony/ritual that Jaime invokes.

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He dreams about his friends being with him, as they had been in life. He dreams clearly about the three Kingsguard. The dialog may not exactly match what was said that day, but it is enough to make sense to Ned. There is symbolism in the dream, to be sure. It is a dream that Ned has had before, an old dream. If you reread the beginning of that chapter, carefully, I believe that you may have a change of heart. ;)

Yes, it makes sense to Ned. It doesn't need to make sense to us. We don't know what exactly Lyanna told him, so the possibility of her mentioning a vow is there. Or someone else of those others who found Ned might have seen it. Anyway, "We swore a vow" explains nothing. Everyone knows the KG did swear vows. And they knew the basics of what they were. No need for them to state something everyone knew.

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He was protected. He had the royal fleet and a garrison of loyalist.

...but no KG. Which is the whole POINT of the KG. Not to die protecting a bastard in a remote location while their King has fled the country with no KG around him.

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Well, I never said anything at all about 'usurper' and what it meant, although it's obvious from this use that they are talking about someone taking the throne. I said they knew that Robert won the Battle at the Trident. They wouldn't have KNOWN THAT if someone else hadn't have told them. I think it's sort of ridiculous to claim that they didn't know anything that happened after that when they clearly knew up to THAT particular point and seem absolutely nonchalant about anything else Ned says. "Oh, well, I'll concede they knew part but not all!" No, they knew all of it somehow.

They wouldn't have KNOWN THAT if someone else hadn't have told them.

The North is north of the Trident--

The Trident is north of King's Landing-- 350 miles

King's Landing is north of the tower---600 miles.

A party of 7 northerners... including a Stark and Aerys's prisoner Ethan Glover rides up to the tower.

The either won or retreated 950 miles into enemy territory.

I think it's sort of ridiculous to claim that they didn't know anything that happened after that when they clearly knew up to THAT particular point

Is assuming the loser of a battle presses nearly a thousand miles further into enemy territory...A. Reasonable or B Ridiculous.

Is asserting the kingsguard did not know where they were or who they were speaking to...A. Reasonable or B Ridiculous.

and seem absolutely nonchalant about anything else Ned says.

Do you actually have a book or something on the proper emotional reactions a knight should show to an enemy report of new or old information?

without it... the characterization of their response seems arbitrary.

"Oh, well, I'll concede they knew part but not all!" No, they knew all of it somehow.

That somehow must be after the birth of a baby and before the arrival of Ned.

The News of the trident... at least 2 weeks before the sack must arrive with the news of the sack... That means royalist news travels faster after the royals die or the death of Rhaegar and loss of 3/7ths of the kingsguard, and the impending siege of King's Landing was not newsworthy... until the king and Aegon were killed.

Ever notice that one tends to use "somehow"... to explain things that cannot be explained reasonably.

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They wouldn't have KNOWN THAT if someone else hadn't have told them.

The North is north of the Trident--

The Trident is north of King's Landing-- 350 miles

King's Landing is north of the tower---600 miles.

A party of 7 northerners... including a Stark and Aerys's prisoner Ethan Glover rides up to the tower.

The either won or retreated 950 miles into enemy territory.

I think it's sort of ridiculous to claim that they didn't know anything that happened after that when they clearly knew up to THAT particular point

Is assuming the loser of a battle presses nearly a thousand miles further into enemy territory...A. Reasonable or B Ridiculous.

Is asserting the kingsguard did not know where they were or who they were speaking to...A. Reasonable or B Ridiculous.

and seem absolutely nonchalant about anything else Ned says.

Do you actually have a book or something on the proper emotional reactions a knight should show to an enemy report of new or old information?

without it... the characterization of their response seems arbitrary.

"Oh, well, I'll concede they knew part but not all!" No, they knew all of it somehow.

That somehow must be after the birth of a baby and before the arrival of Ned.

The News of the trident... at least 2 weeks before the sack must arrive with the news of the sack... That means royalist news travels faster after the royals die or the death of Rhaegar and loss of 3/7ths of the kingsguard, and the impending siege of King's Landing was not newsworthy... until the king and Aegon were killed.

Ever notice that one tends to use "somehow"... to explain things that cannot be explained reasonably.

...I'm not doing math. It's completely unnecessary for this conversation. It's about as obvious as it can be that the KG knew what happened. The way they react to everything is proof enough.

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