R+L=J v.104

[Kingmonkey]

On the question of when exactly Robert's Rebellion ended, just for fun:

In 1966 a diplomat of the Soviet Union visited the small town of Berwick-upon-tweed on the border between England and Scotland. The purpose of this visit was to sign a peace treaty between the Soviet Union and the small town, based on the (almost certainly erroneous, but never mind) idea that when Great Britain went to war with Russia in the Crimea well over a hundred years previously, the war had been declared for complicated reasons of constitutional formality by Queen Victoria of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British dominions overseas. When peace was declared a few years later, the town was not mentioned. By this theory, Berwick-upon-Tweed (pop. c10,000) remained at war with the Russia and then the Soviet Union for 113 years until signing the peace treaty with the no doubt highly amused Russian diplomat. Famously the mayor of the town said "Please tell the people of Russia that they may sleep securely now."

The endings of wars can be quite blurred. Pretty much depends on where you choose to draw the line. Dany might consider the war not over yet.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Since it's Ned's POV who states that the war had lasted "close to a year", and since it is Ned's POV that stated that after Robert had seen the bodies of Rhaegar's children ("dragonspawn"), "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south.", the "close to a year" is somewhere at Storm's End/Tower of Joy showdown.

Whatever Dany considers, she should express it in a POV, then we can work with it.. :p until then..

[BearQueen87]

Not if the Others can circumvent the Wall (by going through the Gorge, or crossing the Bay of Ice). Then they could land on Sea Dragon Point, far away from the Night's Watch - surely that place is going to become important, when Asha brings it up again and again...

Another possibility would be that the Others have found the Horn of Joramun long ago. That thing should show up eventually, shouldn't it? And the idea that it is the horn Sam has with him in Oldtown would be way too convenient - not to mention that it could not threaten the Wall from there...

I think the Horn of Joramun might be with Sam.

doubt that Winterfell will become important for the revelation about Jon's heritage. Bran could/should already know it by now, and he has already contacted Jon in his sleep in ACoK. He could repeat that now, when Jon is dead/unconscious/in Ghost. He could also train Jon to use his skinchanging abilities while living in Ghost - if that is possible.

That's possible as well, but I still think Jon has to go to the crypts and that there is something inside Lyanna's tomb. It has been calling to Jon for awhile.

[BearQueen87]

On the question of when exactly Robert's Rebellion ended, just for fun:

In 1966 a diplomat of the Soviet Union visited the small town of Berwick-upon-tweed on the border between England and Scotland. The purpose of this visit was to sign a peace treaty between the Soviet Union and the small town, based on the (almost certainly erroneous, but never mind) idea that when Great Britain went to war with Russia in the Crimea well over a hundred years previously, the war had been declared for complicated reasons of constitutional formality by Queen Victoria of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British dominions overseas. When peace was declared a few years later, the town was not mentioned. By this theory, Berwick-upon-Tweed (pop. c10,000) remained at war with the Russia and then the Soviet Union for 113 years until signing the peace treaty with the no doubt highly amused Russian diplomat. Famously the mayor of the town said "Please tell the people of Russia that they may sleep securely now."

The endings of wars can be quite blurred. Pretty much depends on where you choose to draw the line. Dany might consider the war not over yet.

I think both Dany and Viserys considered the War ongoing since 1) They both Robert the Usurper and 2) Viserys believed that there were houses raising glasses in cheers to his health and whatnot.

[RumHam]

Turn it on its ear. Why does Ned despise Jaime but revere Arthur Dayne?

I really think this is a bad argument. to copy/paste something I said in an earlier version of the thread:

Yes, but what Jaime did is not on the level of what Ser Arthur may have done. Jaime killed the man he had sworn to protect, he broke the most important part of the vow. If Ned had known about the wildfire plot maybe he would have thought differently of Jaime.

Arthur's "crime" is that he didn't continue to support and protect the heir of a dynasty that had been deposed. Nobody is suggesting that anyone steadfastly refused to leave the Tower of Joy and go back Viserys's claim, are they? What's being suggested is that he kept following Rhaegar's orders to protect the tower / Lyanna even after learning of Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon's deaths. I don't think Ned would fault him for this.

I'm just saying I think it's faulty logic to go from a comparison of Ned's opinion of Jaime vs. Author to "Arthur could never have abandoned Viserys cause he was the best."

[BearQueen87]

Yes, but what Jaime did is not on the level of what Ser Arthur may have done. Jaime killed the man he had sworn to protect, he broke the most important part of the vow. If Ned had known about the wildfire plot maybe he would have thought differently of Jaime.

I don't know. I think Ned's biggest issues is that Jaime was one of the 7 KG and therefore, no matter the reason, Jaime should not have lifted a finger against Aerys.

From Eddard II

"Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!" Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me."

"We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard," Ned said.

[MtnLion]

I really think this is a bad argument. to copy/paste something I said in an earlier version of the thread:

I must have missed it. ;) Did I err in my analysis?

[stateofdissipation]

I really think this is a bad argument. to copy/paste something I said in an earlier version of the thread:

We are introduced to Dayne a the deadliest...

Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they had heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers, They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's kingsguard, and how their young lord had slain him in single combat. .--aGoT page 62

Ned does not have an adjective for Dayne in chapter 39. but does when he remembers/dreams of Harrenhal

Brandon fell to him(Rhaegar), and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Arthur Dayne, the Sword of morning --aGoT page 608

Bran recalls something Ned had said of Dayne:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

Jamie brings him up.

I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right--aSoS chapter 67

We have four quotes about Arthur Dayne there.... three specifically mention his fighting ability... three mention death (killed, dead, and slain).

One calls him the finest knight... without spelling out the qualities of a fine knight... and then adds would have killed me.

We can absolutely call Dayne deadly, lethal, skilled...

I can assert that Dayne was faithful, honest, honorable, having good personal hygiene, a generous tipper, loved dogs, and helped old ladies across the street with an equal basis in the text....."the finest knight"

[RumHam]

I don't know. I think Ned's biggest issues is that Jaime was one of the 7 KG and therefore, no matter the reason, Jaime should not have lifted a finger against Aerys.

From Eddard II

I agree Eddard's issue with Jaime is clearly that he killed the man he was sworn to protect. But Dayne did not lift a finger against Aerys. He just stayed at the Tower that shall not be named and possibly neglected his duty to travel across war-torn country to protect a little kid Ned had no intention of letting rule anyway. You could argue that not being true to "the first duty" of the kingsguard would cause Ned to lose some respect for Dayne, but Jaime doesn't factor into it.

It also seems unlikely to me that it would tarnish Ned's opinion of the finest knight he ever knew. I think Ned admires him in part for refusing to bend his knee to Robert, but that's not the whole reason he's the finest knight Ned ever knew. He was by all accounts pretty damn good with that sword of his.

[BearQueen87]

It also seems unlikely to me that it would tarnish Ned's opinion of the finest knight he ever knew. I think Ned admires him in part for refusing to bend his knee to Robert, but that's not the whole reason he's the finest knight Ned ever knew. He was by all accounts pretty damn good with that sword of his.

Yeah he was brilliant with that sword. But to re-post what MtnLion wrote a page back

It is explicitly given in the text, so we don't need to think about Jon's status at all. It is simple, "They were a shining example to the world of honor and skill." The difference between Arthur and Jaime is not skill, the difference is honor.

[MtnLion]

I agree Eddard's issue with Jaime is clearly that he killed the man he was sworn to protect. But Dayne did not lift a finger against Aerys. He just stayed at the Tower that shall not be named and possibly neglected his duty to travel across war-torn country to protect a little kid Ned had no intention of letting rule anyway. You could argue that not being true to "the first duty" of the kingsguard would cause Ned to lose some respect for Dayne, but Jaime doesn't factor into it.

It also seems unlikely to me that it would tarnish Ned's opinion of the finest knight he ever knew. I think Ned admires him in part for refusing to bend his knee to Robert, but that's not the whole reason he's the finest knight Ned ever knew. He was by all accounts pretty damn good with that sword of his.

And, Jaime wasn't? Ned said "honor and skill". Jaime's skill is comparable to Arthur, and probably better than Hightower's and Whent's. It is not skill that differntiates these men, it is the honor.

the bear :ninja:

[BearQueen87]

And, Jaime wasn't? Ned said "honor and skill". Jaime's skill is comparable to Arthur, and probably better than Hightower's and Whent's. It is not skill that differntiates these men, it is the honor.

Isn't there an SSM where GRRM lays out the Knight's skills as compared to the others? Like Barry and Dayne and Jaime?

[TheLastStark]

1. It is explicitly given in the text, so we don't need to think about Jon's status at all. It is simple, "They were a shining example to the world of honor and skill." The difference between Arthur and Jaime is not skill, the difference is honor.

Why is not important. The simple answer is that Jaime had sworn to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. Instead of living up to that vow he decided to kill Aerys, his king, and break his vow. Jaime dishonors himself.

Ned does not need to know why. Again, it is simple, Jaime has violated his most sacred vow.

Again, you are making assumptions about where in the story I am speaking of. The quotes that I am working with, at this point, is strictly what Ned says to Bran. Was there one that was greater than all of the rest? Yes, Arthur Dayne. This is fifteen years after the tower of joy, and Ned is reflecting on what he knows about the man, now. (But, to go back tot he tower of joy, Ned is respectfully offering them a chance surrender when he brings up the fact that all of the other loyalist forces have surrendered to him. The Kingsguard decline to surrender. He then offers them a chance to leave (flee) to go to Dragonstone, by openning the dialog on the point that Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys have fled there with Willem Darry. Two points, the Kingsguard do not comment on Viserys being king at this point, since "prince" could be considered an insult. And, the Kingsguard say fleeing with them and deserting Aerys would be to forsake their vow, and fleeing now would also be forsaking their vow. It is heavily loaded with symbolism, and written to convey information in the most subtle way possible. It is important, otherwise why write it. It must make sense when the secret is revealed to the reader, so it must be very carefully written. But, you needn't understand the subtleties to follow where I am going with Ned's perception of Arthur and Jaime.)

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. By the way, Ned is dead, we are not going to get any more information from his perspective. So we have all that we need to understand the conversation, at hand. Yes, Arthur upheld his vows, to the point of dying for them. There is only one vow that we are given the encompases dying for it, to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. No, there is no other vow that Ned knows about that would justify his thoughts about Dayne (and Whent and Hightower. If one thinks that there might be, feel free to offer a quote of Ned knowing about it.

I don't know why it would make any difference about whether they knew where Viserys was before Ned arrived. But, let's examine the possibilities briefly. Viserys and Rhaella fled about a week before the Trident, and a fortnight before the fall of King's Landing and Aerys death at Jaime's hands. Are the Kingsguard surprised about any of those things? Do they ask where Rhaegar is? Do they worry about Elia and her children? Really, if one reads the lines and takes the time to understand the motives behind the lines, and the understanding of each party of what is being said, it is quite clear.

2)Agree to disagree, but knowing why would have a huge impact on how Ned saw Jaime. Ned was opposed to killing a 13 year old pregnant girl across the sea who possibly posed a threat to Robert's rule, but would still consider Jaime dishonorable for choosing to save innocent elderly, women and children(essentially picking his knightly vows over his KG vows) over not only allowing Areys to kill thousands of innocents, but die as well. I think Ned would of had a different opinion of Jaime had he known the truth.

3)Is there a quote that says he thinks the KG vow is more sacred than the knight's vows? Although there aren't many knights in the north so he may feel that way. Or just feel that no vow should every be forsaken no matter what. But is there a quote that shows his opinion on which vow supersedes another vow when they contradict each other?

4)Ned may have offered them to surrender(bend the knee), but in no instance did he offer them the chance to leave peacefully and go to Dragonstone. He is merely stating that Viserys has "fled" to Dragonstone, not offering them a chance to leave unharmed to join the queen and prince. There is no textual evidence that they knew a)Viserys was on Dragonstone or b)that Viserys had been crowned king by his mother, so the term "prince" wouldn't really be an insult. They do not say that "fleeing" with the queen and prince would of been forsaking their vows, if Areys had ordered them to go, they would have to. The statement "the KG does not flee" means that they fight to the death instead of running away/retreating/fleeing, not that following an order from their king to go somewhere is considered fleeing from him.

5)which KG vows does Ned know? Do you have a quote that shows his knowledge of it?

6)It makes all the difference in the world, especially when discussing R+L=J, because those diehardthismustbetrue fans always point to the fact that the 3 KG were at the ToJ and not with Viserys, but if they didn't know the events at KL or where Viserys was at the time(with the queen) then that could be a more reasonable explanation of why.

[MtnLion]

Isn't there an SSM where GRRM lays out the Knight's skills as compared to the others? Like Barry and Dayne and Jaime?

Jaime is not directly compared, probably for a reason. However, GRRM does say that Jaime is pretty much unequaled at the time of the story.

[RumHam]

Now I wish I hadn't brought up Arthur's skill level, because that really had nothing to do with my original point. (That comparing Ned's feeling towards Jaime to his feelings towards Arthur is not a good argument in favor of "Arthur must have died defending someone he saw as his king.") So restricting it to just honor, Jaime is detestable because he killed the king he was sworn to protect. Arthur did no such thing. At worst he chose to obey the order of the crown prince when he should have sought out his rightful king. (as I've said this is not a given for me) How are the two things comparable? How do Ned's feelings towards king-murdering kingsguard tell us anything about his feelings towards Arthur, and what makes a great knight or an honorable man?

[MtnLion]

2)Agree to disagree, but knowing why would have a huge impact on how Ned saw Jaime. Ned was opposed to killing a 13 year old pregnant girl across the sea who possibly posed a threat to Robert's rule, but would still consider Jaime dishonorable for choosing to save innocent elderly, women and children(essentially picking his knightly vows over his KG vows) over not only allowing Areys to kill thousands of innocents, but die as well. I think Ned would of had a different opinion of Jaime had he known the truth.

This is not based upon what Ned would do, it is based upon Jaime's vow. BearQueen cited the quote between Robert and Ned which explains Ned's perspective on Jaime. Robert thought that he did correctly, and Ned point blank says that Jaime had broken his vow.

3)Is there a quote that says he thinks the KG vow is more sacred than the knight's vows? Although there aren't many knights in the north so he may feel that way. Or just feel that no vow should every be forsaken no matter what. But is there a quote that shows his opinion on which vow supersedes another vow when they contradict each other?

Again this is covered between Robert and Ned.

4)Ned may have offered them to surrender(bend the knee), but in no instance did he offer them the chance to leave peacefully and go to Dragonstone. He is merely stating that Viserys has "fled" to Dragonstone, not offering them a chance to leave unharmed to join the queen and prince. There is no textual evidence that they knew a)Viserys was on Dragonstone or b)that Viserys had been crowned king by his mother, so the term "prince" wouldn't really be an insult. They do not say that "fleeing" with the queen and prince would of been forsaking their vows, if Areys had ordered them to go, they would have to. The statement "the KG does not flee" means that they fight to the death instead of running away/retreating/fleeing, not that following an order from their king to go somewhere is considered fleeing from him.

Yes, they do say fleeing would be a breach to their vows.

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

If you disagree, what does "then or now" refer to? It took me a long time to get it sensible, but it does refer to then, when Viserys and Rhaella fled to Dragonstone. It becomes very apparent what now means.

5)which KG vows does Ned know? Do you have a quote that shows his knowledge of it?

Oh, how we forget that Ned was present at Harrenhal, when Jaime took his vow.

6)It makes all the difference in the world, especially when discussing R+L=J, because those diehardthismustbetrue fans always point to the fact that the 3 KG were at the ToJ and not with Viserys, but if they didn't know the events at KL or where Viserys was at the time(with the queen) then that could be a more reasonable explanation of why.

Not true. They knew everything Ned was telling them, or you must explain why they don't ask about Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, or Aegon.

[BearQueen87]

Now I wish I hadn't brought up Arthur's skill level, because that really had nothing to do with my original point. (That comparing Ned's feeling towards Jaime to his feelings towards Arthur is not a good argument in favor of "Arthur must have died defending someone he saw as his king.") So restricting it to just honor, Jaime is detestable because he killed the king he was sworn to protect. Arthur did no such thing. At worst he chose to obey the order of the crown prince when he should have sought out his rightful king. (as I've said this is not a given for me) How are the two things comparable? How do Ned's feelings towards king-murdering kingsguard tell us anything about his feelings towards Arthur, and what makes a great knight or an honorable man?

The honorable knight keeps his vows, no matter what, even if it means death. Arthur kept his vows as KG (obey, protect, yadda yadda death by ToJ analysis)

[MtnLion]

Now I wish I hadn't brought up Arthur's skill level, because that really had nothing to do with my original point. (That comparing Ned's feeling towards Jaime to his feelings towards Arthur is not a good argument in favor of "Arthur must have died defending someone he saw as his king.") So restricting it to just honor, Jaime is detestable because he killed the king he was sworn to protect. Arthur did no such thing. At worst he chose to obey the order of the crown prince when he should have sought out his rightful king. (as I've said this is not a given for me) How are the two things comparable? How do Ned's feelings towards king-murdering kingsguard tell us anything about his feelings towards Arthur, and what makes a great knight or an honorable man?

No, Arthur was a shining example of honor and skill to the world!

ETA: Paraphrased quote, but this is what Ned tells Bran about the man who was the best of the Kingsguard.

[RumHam]

The honorable knight keeps his vows, no matter what, even if it means death. Arthur kept his vows as KG (obey, protect, yadda yadda death by ToJ analysis)

And is it not possible that he did just that without considering Jon to be his king? by following the last order he ever got from a member of the royal family even after that guy had died? Again how does "Ned hates Jaime cause he's killed the king he swore to protect" help support your thesis?

No, Arthur was a shining example of honor and skill to the world!

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure how that's a response to what I said.

[MtnLion]

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure how that's a response to what I said.

Then your response must be nonsense? You are comparing Jaime and Arthur, and we have established that the difference between them is not skill, but honor. Then you are suggesting that ordinary honor would suffice for what Ned said, but that is not what Ned says. Ned says that the Kingsguard's honor and skill was a shining example to the world, and that Arthur was the greatest among that group. Arthur had no ordinary level of honor.