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R+L=J v.104


Jon Weirgaryen

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And is it not possible that he did just that without considering Jon to be his king? by following the last order he ever got from a member of the royal family even after that guy had died? Again how does "Ned hates Jaime cause he's killed the king he swore to protect" help support your thesis?

I'm sorry but I'm really not sure how that's a response to what I said.

well it is an invention...

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked if the kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered,"but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

If you add Arthur Dayne into "once" and tack on "of honor and skill" after example... then choose it was the honor that was the difference between Jamie and Arthur... you can conclude that Arthur defended his king.

As Arthur did not defend his king... or the next king.... or his BFF the prince... we can conclude that he must have been protecting something more important; the ferus that may have turned out to be the third in line to the throne. As we all know honor is not about what one accomplishes... it is about waiting long enough to be in the right place at the right time to die trying to do the right thing.

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Isn't there an SSM where GRRM lays out the Knight's skills as compared to the others? Like Barry and Dayne and Jaime?

There's one where Selmy and Dayne are compared, with GRRM coming down on the side of Dayne if he has Dawn, and a toss-up otherwise.

I think of it as being very similar to the Arthurian romances, where the emphasis was generally not on King Arthur but on his knights. Jaime's a bit of a Lancelot figure, generally regarded as being the most fearsome of fighters if morally weak (and prone to screwing the Queen), but nobody's really comparing him to (king) Arthur who's not out there fighting any more. King Arthur was a legend back when he was winning his kingdom (Nennius has Arthur kill 940 Saxons personally at the battle of Badon), but he's not of the same generation as Lancelot & co. If Arthur Dayne is King Arthur and Jaime Lancelot, than Barristan is probably Gawain, contemporary of King Arthur, still fighting in Lancelot's day, and even as a relatively old man one of the few people even Lancelot would be nervous of fighting. King Robert is really much more the King Arthur figure, but given Dayne's name, GRRM might well have had this sort of parallel in mind.

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There's one where Selmy and Dayne are compared, with GRRM coming down on the side of Dayne if he has Dawn, and a toss-up otherwise.

I think of it as being very similar to the Arthurian romances, where the emphasis was generally not on King Arthur but on his knights. Jaime's a bit of a Lancelot figure, generally regarded as being the most fearsome of fighters if morally weak (and prone to screwing the Queen), but nobody's really comparing him to (king) Arthur who's not out there fighting any more. King Arthur was a legend back when he was winning his kingdom (Nennius has Arthur kill 940 Saxons personally at the battle of Badon), but he's not of the same generation as Lancelot & co. If Arthur Dayne is King Arthur and Jaime Lancelot, than Barristan is probably Gawain, contemporary of King Arthur, still fighting in Lancelot's day, and even as a relatively old man one of the few people even Lancelot would be nervous of fighting. King Robert is really much more the King Arthur figure, but given Dayne's name, GRRM might well have had this sort of parallel in mind.

Next time Lady Gwyn pops her head in, take a look at her siggy. She's got a link to a thread where she lays out tons of Arthurian stuff you'd probably be interested in!

And I agree that Arthur Dayne was named Arthur for a reason. Though I am very intrigued why when asked, "how could Arthur the perfect example of a knight but stand by while Aerys was being Aerys" (paraphrased) GRRM said, "keep reading" or "wait and see"

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This is not based upon what Ned would do, it is based upon Jaime's vow. BearQueen cited the quote between Robert and Ned which explains Ned's perspective on Jaime. Robert thought that he did correctly, and Ned point blank says that Jaime had broken his vow.

Again, Ned still doesn't know the truth of why he killed Areys, and I never said what Ned would do, just what he would think of Jaime if he had known the truth.

Again this is covered between Robert and Ned.

No it's not. Show the quote that shows Ned knows the knight's vows or that he thinks the KG vows are more sacred than the knight's vows. And again, he still doesn't know Jaime killed Areys to save thousands of innocent lives.

You keep pointing to one conversation between two people who don't even know the whole truth of the situation and say, see this is what they thought. I'm talking about if Ned knew, in this conversation Ned has no idea.

Yes, they do say fleeing would be a breach to their vows.

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

If you disagree, what does "then or now" refer to? It took me a long time to get it sensible, but it does refer to then, when Viserys and Rhaella fled to Dragonstone. It becomes very apparent what now means.

Fleeing and being ordered to leave are not the same thing. If they did in fact know that Viserys was on Dragonstone, then they would know that they were ordered to go there by Areys, not fleeing. And there's no mention of Areys ordering them to go to Dragonstone. After rereading that part, Ned makes it sound as if Viserys fled while the city was being sacked, not some time before. The then could mean that they would of stayed by Areys side instead of going with Viserys(assuming Areys hadn't ordered them to go with Viserys). The now could mean they swore to obey orders and are not going to flee from them. They very well could have been planning to meet Viserys on Dragonstone as soon as they were able to move(it seemed that Lyanna had just given birth/still in labor and was too weak/unable to be moved).

Oh, how we forget that Ned was present at Harrenhal, when Jaime took his vow.

So he knows they need to obey orders. That's good to know. Now does he know the knight's vows? Those are different and said at the time someone is knighted with no mention(that I can think of) if they are repeated during the KG vows.

Not true. They knew everything Ned was telling them, or you must explain why they don't ask about Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, or Aegon.

Sorry but the lack of questions does not mean that they knew. Often times the best way to get information out of someone is to let the other person speak. What is the advantage to the KG to let Ned know what they do and don't know? I see no disadvantage, but if there is no gain to be had, and Ned is basically telling them what's going on, why let him(Ned) know what they(3 KG) do and don't know? One possible reason is if they just found out that the city was sacked and that the queen and Viserys had fled, there is really only two options of what happened to Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, either prisoners or dead. I believe they thought they were going to win this little battle, and could have either kept Ned alive long enough and the end to get more information out of him, or take Lyanna with child to Dragonstone via Dorne(who might know what's going on) and find out there(Dragonstone or Sunspear or really any other stops they make on the way to Dragonstone). This is one possibility, and regardless if you like/dislike or agree/disagree with it makes no matter on the fact that it is a possibility.

And now, tell me how they knew?

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Though I am very intrigued why when asked, "how could Arthur the perfect example of a knight but stand by while Aerys was being Aerys" (paraphrased) GRRM said, "keep reading" or "wait and see"

I take this as more reason to suspect that Varys was quite right in telling Aerys there was a plot against him at Harrenhal, and Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent were the main conspirators. Interesting to speculate how that might tie in with the "southron ambitions" idea.

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I take this as more reason to suspect that Varys was quite right in telling Aerys there was a plot against him at Harrenhal, and Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent were the main conspirators. Interesting to speculate how that might tie in with the "southron ambitions" idea.

I do speculate that Dayne and Whent and Rhaegar were planning a little something something (ok, big something something), but (ack! I'm breaking my own TOJ rules) Hightower is the red flag in the TOJ scenario because The White Bull made no such disloyal pacts.

Kinda makes me wonder if Ned knew about the conspiracy or not...

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I do speculate that Dayne and Whent and Rhaegar were planning a little something something (ok, big something something), but (ack! I'm breaking my own TOJ rules) Hightower is the red flag in the TOJ scenario because The White Bull made no such disloyal pacts.

Kinda makes me wonder if Ned knew about the conspiracy or not...

How do we know the White Bull was so loyal, anyway? Is there any quote showing that he was this personally loyal to Aerys that he'd choose him over Rhaegar, or do we go with combining two instances of him mentioning Aerys (to Jaime, after the Starks died) and to Ned (that Aerys would still be king?) with Jaime saying that he was loyal to the end? Jaime wasn't part of Rhaegar's plans anyway, so he wouldn't know who else was.

Because, you know, it occured to me today that in fact, the White Bull didn't show more personal loyalty to Aerys in those two instances than anyone else. The rest of them guarded Aerys for years while he was declining. They might have been prone to replace him with Rhaegar but while he was the king, they protected him and obeyed, and never judged him enough to actually do something.

As to his words to Ned that if they had been there, Aerys would have still sat the IT, they were completely true and could have been said by anyone, Arthur and Oswell included. Whatever plans Rhaegar had about deposing his father, the war changed his plans and he now lead the army in Aerys' name. Had he won, he would have laid the victory at Aerys' feet. Deposing his father immediately after winning was no smart move, further dividing a kingdom that was already devastated by a war. Rhaegar would have been forced to wait, so, IMO, yes, Aerys would have still sat the IT for a while even if Rhaegar had won. And I do find it fitting that even if Ser Gerold was not as loyal to Aerys personally as he was to Rhaegar, he would hardly start enlightening Ned Stark about his loyalties to the different members of the royal family. Meaning to depose him or not, at the time of his death Aerys was still their king - and he was killed. I would suggest that the news of this would eclipse the bad feelings the KG had about him and leave only shock and indignation, much like the ones Ser Gerold expressed to Ned, his enemy.

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Again, Ned still doesn't know the truth of why he killed Areys, and I never said what Ned would do, just what he would think of Jaime if he had known the truth.

No it's not. Show the quote that shows Ned knows the knight's vows or that he thinks the KG vows are more sacred than the knight's vows. And again, he still doesn't know Jaime killed Areys to save thousands of innocent lives.

You keep pointing to one conversation between two people who don't even know the whole truth of the situation and say, see this is what they thought. I'm talking about if Ned knew, in this conversation Ned has no idea.

Fleeing and being ordered to leave are not the same thing. If they did in fact know that Viserys was on Dragonstone, then they would know that they were ordered to go there by Areys, not fleeing. And there's no mention of Areys ordering them to go to Dragonstone. After rereading that part, Ned makes it sound as if Viserys fled while the city was being sacked, not some time before. The then could mean that they would of stayed by Areys side instead of going with Viserys(assuming Areys hadn't ordered them to go with Viserys). The now could mean they swore to obey orders and are not going to flee from them. They very well could have been planning to meet Viserys on Dragonstone as soon as they were able to move(it seemed that Lyanna had just given birth/still in labor and was too weak/unable to be moved).

So he knows they need to obey orders. That's good to know. Now does he know the knight's vows? Those are different and said at the time someone is knighted with no mention(that I can think of) if they are repeated during the KG vows.

Sorry but the lack of questions does not mean that they knew. Often times the best way to get information out of someone is to let the other person speak. What is the advantage to the KG to let Ned know what they do and don't know? I see no disadvantage, but if there is no gain to be had, and Ned is basically telling them what's going on, why let him(Ned) know what they(3 KG) do and don't know? One possible reason is if they just found out that the city was sacked and that the queen and Viserys had fled, there is really only two options of what happened to Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, either prisoners or dead. I believe they thought they were going to win this little battle, and could have either kept Ned alive long enough and the end to get more information out of him, or take Lyanna with child to Dragonstone via Dorne(who might know what's going on) and find out there(Dragonstone or Sunspear or really any other stops they make on the way to Dragonstone). This is one possibility, and regardless if you like/dislike or agree/disagree with it makes no matter on the fact that it is a possibility.

And now, tell me how they knew?

The news to the tower of joy is intentionally left vague. It must be vague because the kingsguard had to have a baby present before the news arrived to be doing their duty...

mind you this is the aDwD duty

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat,--aDwD page 857

and not the aSoS duty

"Keeping the king alive. How many monarchs have you lost since I left the city? Two, is it!" aSoS BG page 274

There is a very narrow window for the baby, news and Ned to arrive at the tower. Though the conjecture requires events to happen in that order. It generally fails to address how or why it happened or why it is reasonable to assume it did.

It is generally covered under "the news probably reached the tower all at the same time."

The real answer as to the determination of the probability of this happening is... if it did not happen that way the kingsguard means king present conjecture ends.

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Kinda makes me wonder if Ned knew about the conspiracy or not...

Going wildly into the unknown here, but if Rhaegar had been quietly gathering support for his council, it would be hardly surprising if he'd made contact with the Starks. In this case it's quite possible he may have gone through Arthur Dayne as we see an interesting amount of Dayne / Stark interaction. In this scenario, it might make sense that the houses planning to go along with this were busy tying themselves together through marriage pacts to ensure they could trust each other. This might give us a good reason for Ned's tendency to get all mopey when thinking about Arthur Dayne, if he saw Dayne as his ally.

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Going wildly into the unknown here, but if Rhaegar had been quietly gathering support for his council, it would be hardly surprising if he'd made contact with the Starks. In this case it's quite possible he may have gone through Arthur Dayne as we see an interesting amount of Dayne / Stark interaction. In this scenario, it might make sense that the houses planning to go along with this were busy tying themselves together through marriage pacts to ensure they could trust each other. This might give us a good reason for Ned's tendency to get all mopey when thinking about Arthur Dayne, if he saw Dayne as his ally.

Possibly. My only nitpick at present, while jumping wildly into the unknown with you, is this: would Rhaegar via Dayne have gone to Ned or gone to Rickard and Brandon, who are the Lord and Heir to Winterfell. Ned's only a second son. But if you want support from the North, then you talk to the head of the family and his heir. Ned would come in later but I don't know if he'd be part of a conspiracy off the bat.

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Possibly. My only nitpick at present, while jumping wildly into the unknown with you, is this: would Rhaegar via Dayne have gone to Ned or gone to Rickard and Brandon, who are the Lord and Heir to Winterfell. Ned's only a second son. But if you want support from the North, then you talk to the head of the family and his heir. Ned would come in later but I don't know if he'd be part of a conspiracy off the bat.

It would have to be Rickard and Brandon before they died in the hands of Aerys or after the passed and Ned becomes heir of Winterfell.

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I just thought something about Ned's comment to Arya bout her wildness "wolf's blood" as his father called it.. and how it led Brandon and Lyanna to an early death.



To use that as support for Lyanna running off can't really be done.



Being wild and running off from her father could be seen as leading to her death


Being wild as a captive of Rhaegar could also be seen as leading to her death



you need to have already decided that Lyanna ran off to reach the conclusion that her being wild meant she ran off. It is not a supportive passage it is another passage that one can draw same conclusion from.

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Possibly. My only nitpick at present, while jumping wildly into the unknown with you, is this: would Rhaegar via Dayne have gone to Ned or gone to Rickard and Brandon, who are the Lord and Heir to Winterfell. Ned's only a second son. But if you want support from the North, then you talk to the head of the family and his heir. Ned would come in later but I don't know if he'd be part of a conspiracy off the bat.

Agreed, though if Ned was out of the loop, Jon Arryn might well have filled him in when he became Lord Stark. It's really the way Ned seems to remember Arthur with sadness, and the sad smile on Arthur's lips in Ned's dream appears to suggest it was reciprocated, that makes me suspect there was something more between Ned and Arthur than just the noble Kingsguard thing. Of course that could be related to Ashara or Lyanna rather than any shared conspiracies.

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Agreed, though if Ned was out of the loop, Jon Arryn might well have filled him in when he became Lord Stark. It's really the way Ned seems to remember Arthur with sadness, and the sad smile on Arthur's lips in Ned's dream appears to suggest it was reciprocated, that makes me suspect there was something more between Ned and Arthur than just the noble Kingsguard thing. Of course that could be related to Ashara or Lyanna rather than any shared conspiracies.

Ahhhh but wouldn't Jon Arryn have told Robert too? And wouldn't that set off bells in Lord Robert? I mean, Robert is dense but if Jon Arryn is telling you that Rhaegar and 2KG had a plan to overthrow Aerys then they might at least think about what's going on overall.

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Ahhhh but wouldn't Jon Arryn have told Robert too? And wouldn't that set off bells in Lord Robert? I mean, Robert is dense but if Jon Arryn is telling you that Rhaegar and 2KG had a plan to overthrow Aerys then they might at least think about what's going on overall.

I don't think that would be an issue for Robert. He could have been very much part of the plan right up until he heard that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, then all bets were off and he jumped straight to "BARATHEON SMASH!"

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I don't think that would be an issue for Robert. He could have been very much part of the plan right up until he heard that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, then all bets were off and he jumped straight to "BARATHEON SMASH!"

But Jon Arryn and Ned Stark wouldn't have paused and tried to think it through? Robert, yes, SMASH. But the other two...ehhh.

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But Jon Arryn and Ned Stark wouldn't have paused and tried to think it through? Robert, yes, SMASH. But the other two...ehhh.

the rebellion started because Areys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned. If Areys hadn't demanded their heads would they still have rebelled?

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the rebellion started because Areys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned. If Areys hadn't demanded their heads would they still have rebelled?

I think this is what I'm getting caught up on.

The proposal KingMonkey gave: Lord Arryn knew about the conspiracy between Rhaegar and his 2KG to overthrow Aerys. He later told Ned which is why Ned has respect for Arthur.

Problem: Here's what we know. Rhaegar and the 2KG take Lyanna and then Brandon goes off to KL and dies along with Rickard. Aerys orders the heads of Robert and Ned lopped off. Jon Arryn says NOPE. Cue Rebellion.

Why, when hearing about what happened to Brandon and Rickard, would Ned still have called his banners knowing that Rhaegar obviously had some sort of plan? Wouldn't he have gone in search of his sister and Rhaegar instead of going to war against Aerys?

Thus: I don't think Ned ever knew about the conspiracy, at least not until after the TOJ showdown and maybe Lyanna told Ned as she died.

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the rebellion started because Areys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned. If Areys hadn't demanded their heads would they still have rebelled?

Aerys held the other lord's sons hostage to get their fathers to King's Landing. We know he had executed Jon Arryn's nephew and heir... then we hear he demands Jon Arryn send him the heads of his wards. Aerys was mad indeed if what we hear was true.

Absolutely true... if Jon Arryn had not called his banners and reported Aerys had called for Ned and Robert's heads the war would never have happened.

If Rhaegar had never kidnapped Lyanna, the Baratheon-Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance would have happened.

Hoster called Brandon a gallant fool.... If Brandon did not have enough backing to challenge Aerys he would have just been a fool. If the backing was not in place to react in time to save him, he was a gallant fool.

Jon Arryn's report of what Aerys had ordered completed what Rhaegar prevented by kidnapping Lyanna.

Much seems to be made of Rhaegar trying to depose his father... what if Rhaegar was supporting his father. Kidnapping Lyanna was his attempt to disrupt the anti Targ alliance. It should have brought the Baratheons and Starks against the Targaryens and left the Arryns and Tullys out.

Everyone knew Aerys was mad, who would doubt Jon's word as to what Aerys had ordered. Even if it never happened.

Rheagar could have accounted for most everything that happened as a coming from kidnapping Lyanna. Except for Jon Arryn's lie and how easily it would be believed.

This does not impact R loved L or vice versa... it does change the circumstances of how and why they got together.

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First, we do not know what Elia's status was as far as marriage. There are hints that she may have been retired from that position. Second, even if she remained Rhaegar's first wife, Rhaegar could not bed her without risking her life, so Lyanna would not see it as Rhaegar not keeping to one bed. But, we do know that Lyanna took the offer, as she was not held against her will. Ned reflects that Lyanna had a touch of the wolf in her that led to her death, not that she was forced in any way.

Yes, I do believe she took the offer. But IMO, if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar's overtures around the time of the tourney, she did it at a time when Elia had recovered from the rigors of Rhaenys' birth and was about to embark on her pregnancy of Aegon. So if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar as a romantic possibility at the tourney, she IS accepting him as a potential romantic partner despite the fact that (at the time) Elia was still a reproductively functional woman with no justificion either of infertility or improper behavior for setting her aside.

So if Lyanna starts contemplating any possibility of marriage due to incipient romance with Rhaegar at the tourney, it would necessarily mean that she was condoning the idea of Rhaegar keeping to both her bed AND Elia's (as well as the idea of being among the Most Ladylike and Least Free ladies of the kingdom). And IMO, that just doesn't accord with what we know of Lyanna's character.

OTOH - she might be very attracted to being the brave prince's outlaw lover, steadfastly risking everything to love him while he courageously works to overthrow his mad father - adoring her and understanding her enough to return her love and leave her her freedom like a true Northern warrior woman, without trying to force her into a yoke of married ladyhood she feels unsuited for. That's a song that might attract her a lot, and I think it would be more in character for her.

I do think that they probably started corresponding secretly right after the tourney. I think it would be beyond belief if she hadn't heard from him for a year, and suddenly just after all the bells have finished tolling the glad news of the birth of the heir to his proud parents Rhaegar and Elia, Rhaegar pops out from behind a tree and says, "Hi! Remember, I gave your a wreath? Wanna elope because I love you and we need to conceive a Savior together?" and Lyanna's all like, "Yeah, let's go..." Somehow I just can't believe that - no matter how poetically Rhaegar words it.

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