R+L =J v.105

[stateofdissipation]

I'm aware. But his name is Bynden RIVERS. (bastard) (and his first name is Brynden not Byrn unless that's a nickname that I'm not aware of. Though it's seems excessive for one man to have both Bryn and Bloodraven as nicknames)

Byrn... Bynden... Brynden. kingsguard....KG... KIng's Guard... tower of joy...Tower of Joy... TOJ..

I was not really aware we cared too much about a consistent spelling or use of terms... so long as what is referred to is clear... Bryn Blackwood seems appropriate... Brynden Rivers would be proper... Brynden Blackwood may actually be a person... not bloodraven..

[Black Crow]

I'm aware. But his name is Bynden RIVERS. (bastard) (and his first name is Brynden not Byrn unless that's a nickname that I'm not aware of. Though it's seems excessive for one man to have both Bryn and Bloodraven as nicknames)

According to the dead man himself it was his Blackwood mother who named him; Bryn is just a shortening of Brynden as Bran is of Brandon - and both spellings are used of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion. Rather more to the point the dead man in the tree and the crows are tied into the Old Gods.

[BearQueen87]

Byrn... Bynden... Brynden. kingsguard....KG... KIng's Guard... tower of joy...Tower of Joy... TOJ..

I was not really aware we cared too much about a consistent spelling or use of terms... so long as what is referred to is clear... Bryn Blackwood seems appropriate... Brynden Rivers would be proper... Brynden Blackwood may actually be a person... not bloodraven..

Let me rephrase then: I've never seen him called Bryn, only ever Brynden Rivers or Bloodraven. As such, I'm going to call him Bloodraven since it even comes with its own little saying.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor

[BearQueen87]

Rather more to the point the dead man in the tree and the crows are tied into the Old Gods.

Well, he more or less IS an Old God. (which sets off an alarming number of bells in my head but I guess that's neither here nor there)

[BearQueen87]

Hodor

Someday you're going to say something besides Hodor and it's going to shake everyone's world.

[stateofdissipation]

Back to 1)

Jon is king of the north....

"...Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King of the North. I had hoped you would support my choice"

"I cannot ," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this... This is folly. Don't ask it."

"I don't have to. I am the king." Robb turned away and walked off..--aSoS BG page 59

"...Lord Balon left chaos in his wake, we hope. I do not intend to do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I have thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now my true and loyal lords to fix your seals as witnesses to my decision"

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated.--aSoS BG page 66

aSoS chapter 51 makes Jon king... Jamie Lannister sends his regards.

The raven's babbling about Jon being king.. has already come to pass.

[Black Crow]

Well, he more or less IS an Old God. (which sets off an alarming number of bells in my head but I guess that's neither here nor there)

Indeed, which is why I'm cautioning that when a crow [ravens are corvids] talks about kings, sitting on the Iron Throne is not the only show in town

[BearQueen87]

Back to 1)

Jon is king of the north....

"...Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King of the North. I had hoped you would support my choice"

"I cannot ," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this... This is folly. Don't ask it."

"I don't have to. I am the king." Robb turned away and walked off..--aSoS BG page 59

"...Lord Balon left chaos in his wake, we hope. I do not intend to do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I have thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now my true and loyal lords to fix your seals as witnesses to my decision"

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated.--aSoS BG page 66

aSoS chapter 51 makes Jon king... Jamie Lannister sends his regards.

The raven's babbling about Jon being king.. has already come to pass.

Could have already come to pass at his birth as well.

Indeed, which is why I'm cautioning that when a crow [ravens are corvids] talks about kings, sitting on the Iron Throne is not the only show in town

I agree with you on that. It could be The King in the North at the end, especially if Robb's will is ever discovered. But I don't think that negates Jon being born a Prince/King of Westeros at the ToJ (if you believe RL = legit J). Whether or not he'll be King of Westeros or just the North comes series end, we have to wait and see.

[sj4iy]

Indeed, which is why I'm cautioning that when a crow [ravens are corvids] talks about kings, sitting on the Iron Throne is not the only show in town

Jon, by birthright, may have a claim on the Iron Throne.

Jon, by Robb's will, is the King in the North.

Jon could feasibly become the king of the Wildlings by being chosen.

However, Jon has only been one of those since the beginning of the story..and that's the first. I don't think any of us are absolutely declaring Jon will sit the Iron Throne in the end...far from it. But I don't see why we can't discuss the possibilities.

[BearQueen87]

Jon, by birthright, may have a claim on the Iron Throne.

Jon, by Robb's will, is the King in the North.

Jon could feasibly become the king of the Wildlings by being chosen.

However, Jon has only been one of those since the beginning of the story..and that's the first. I don't think any of us are absolutely declaring Jon will sit the Iron Throne in the end...far from it. But I don't see why we can't discuss the possibilities.

Personally, I don't think the Iron Throne or KL are going to be standing by the end of the series. Both of those things are doooooomed.

[PrettyPig]

To return to something Lord Varys posted in 104:

Lord Varys

Posted Yesterday, 02:30 PM

I'm also really at a loss how they successfully traveled from the Riverlands to the Red Mountains without anyone recognizing them - or without them realizing/learning that the Realm was at war. The latter problem can be somewhat resolved if we assume that some time passed between Lyanna's disappearance and the outbreak of open hostilities, but it cannot have been more than two months - say, 1-2 weeks until Brandon heard about the abduction, 1-2 weeks until Rickard arrived at KL, a week passing until the trial-by-combat thing began, a few days until Aerys decided to demand the heads of Ned and Robert, a week until Jon Arryn decided to call his banners, some days until KL learned that the Eyrie was rebelling...

I have a theory on this, but it probably won't be very popular because it rattles some popular headcanon cages.

Original post here, #48: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116141-neds-multiple-bastards/page-3#entry6217261

Most folks are discounting the Fisherman's Daughter story as an irrelevant red herring....I don't think it's either. It's a conceivable (albeit lengthy) mechanism for smuggling someone out of a tense north-central Westeros and into the safer territory of Dorne - not by traveling THROUGH it, but AROUND it.

The timeline fits, too. Of course, it requires a reconsideration of Ned and his involvement, but IMO....putting him in the picture as a conspirator actually helps other things make more sense - his attitude toward Rhaegar/Dayne/Whent, Rickard's semi-lack of concern over the "kidanpping", etc. It also ties in Starfall, if you consider it a port/delivery point (literally or figuratively).

[BearQueen87]

To return to something Lord Varys posted in 104:

I have a theory on this, but it probably won't be very popular because it rattles some popular headcanon cages.

Original post here, #48: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116141-neds-multiple-bastards/page-3#entry6217261

Most folks are discounting the Fisherman's Daughter story as an irrelevant red herring....I don't think it's either. It's a conceivable (albeit lengthy) mechanism for smuggling someone out of a tense north-central Westeros and into the safer territory of Dorne - not by traveling THROUGH it, but AROUND it.

The timeline fits, too. Of course, it requires a reconsideration of Ned and his involvement, but IMO....putting him in the picture as a conspirator actually helps other things make more sense - his attitude toward Rhaegar/Dayne/Whent, Rickard's semi-lack of concern over the "kidanpping", etc. It also ties in Starfall, if you consider it a port/delivery point (literally or figuratively).

Please correct me if I'm misreading you, but your theory is that Ned got Lyanna out of central Westeros and into Dorne? That Ned was "part of it" all along? Before we talk about it, I just want to make sure I understand you.

[PrettyPig]

It would imply that, yes.

[BearQueen87]

It would imply that, yes.

So when Jon Arryn calls his banners, Ned played along in wanting to overthrow the Targ's knowing that Rhaegar would assume the throne, will Lyanna as his Queen and their child?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Hodor

That only counts if you've done it starting from the first thread! :P

[sj4iy]

Personally, I don't think the Iron Throne or KL are going to be standing by the end of the series. Both of those things are doooooomed.

I think they will, but they'll be in bad shape. Being the king won't be a 'prize'.

[BearQueen87]

I think they will, but they'll be in bad shape. Being the king won't be a 'prize'.

I think the old regime will "die" as Jon tries to bring Westeros into a new age. If I had to guess, I think his kingship will be out of Harrenhal.

[stateofdissipation]

Could have already come to pass at his birth as well.

I agree with you on that. It could be The King in the North at the end, especially if Robb's will is ever discovered. But I don't think that negates Jon being born a Prince/King of Westeros at the ToJ (if you believe RL = legit J). Whether or not he'll be King of Westeros or just the North comes series end, we have to wait and see.

If GRRM reveals RLJ and R married and Aegon is not Rhaegar's son... then Jon is king of the seven kingdoms.

GRRM has revealed that Jon is king of the north.... If that becomes known to the north or to Jon does not matter. We have Jon as king. Just like we have Tommen is Jamie's son.

The raven that called Jon king in was poved correct in aSoS. If you think there is more to the raven's ramblings, you can wait to see.

[sj4iy]

I think the old regime will "die" as Jon tries to bring Westeros into a new age. If I had to guess, I think his kingship will be out of Harrenhal.

I think the same thing...if Jon becomes king, he will be the king responsible for raising the country back out of the ashes, because Westeros will be essentially destroyed after all of the wars and the apocalypse.