R+L =J v.105

[Ghost's Shadow]

Going back to 7 different kingdoms isn't a smart thing to do, either. The IB will have its money back, and that'll be easier with one guy in charge, than 7-ish. He's at least known to one IB'er.

The one who can clean up after the Others/Wot5K has a shitty job ahead, but I can imagine him being the one to do it.

[BearQueen87]

Going back to 7 different kingdoms isn't a smart thing to do, either. The IB will have its money back, and that'll be easier with one guy in charge, than 7-ish. He's at least known to one IB'er.

The one who can clean up after the Others/Wot5K has a shitty job ahead, but I can imagine him being the one to do it.

I've wondered before if Dorne might break away for good; they've always been "out there." But Jon cold still be King of the 7 Kingdoms if the Wall falls and the Wildlings settle beyond but become part of Westeros proper: the North and the REALLY FAR NORTH

[sj4iy]

Going back to 7 different kingdoms isn't a smart thing to do, either. The IB will have its money back, and that'll be easier with one guy in charge, than 7-ish. He's at least known to one IB'er.

The one who can clean up after the Others/Wot5K has a shitty job ahead, but I can imagine him being the one to do it.

Same. It wouldn't be something he would want to do, but he would do it and would do it to the best of his ability.

[PrettyPig]

So when Jon Arryn calls his banners, Ned played along in wanting to overthrow the Targ's knowing that Rhaegar would assume the throne, will Lyanna as his Queen and their child?

This theory was a fairly recent "Hmmmmm..." moment for me, so it hasn't been fully fleshed out, BUT.....

I think it ties back to Southron Ambitions. The Starks and Tullys in particular were going to gain a lot of strength through their various marriage alliances, with Jon Arryn helping control things behind the scenes, and Rhaegar was going to be a big part of this. (If you look at the betrothal plans in place around/after ToHH, you’ll see that not only is the North being folded into the realm, but more importantly, the offspring of those marriage alliances could have a shot at marrying into the Targaryen line, or the line of whoever was sitting the IT at the time – i.e. Ned’s comment of Brandon being “father to queens”.)

I'm still chewing on something regarding Lyanna's disappearance so I won't go too much into that, but I do believe that when it happened, Rickard, Hoster, and Jon opted to sit back and wait - meaning, they either knew it was going to happen, or they suspected that someone else was moving vital pieces on the cyvasse board and wanted to see the rest played out first. There is a reason that Hoster told Brandon not to ride to KL, there is a reason that Rickard only traveled to KL after Aerys' summons, there is a reason that Jon Arryn only called banners after the Stark deaths. (I also think there is a reason that Brandon went to KL, too - something specific led him to believe that Rhaegar took Ly there, but that is another fledgling theory that I will keep close to the vest for now.)

After Ly's disappearance, there is a lag of maybe a couple of months before Ned rides to WF to call his banners – enough time for Lyanna to get north of the Riverlands. At some point, Ned finds out about Lyanna.** If she were to make it to the Fingers from wherever-the-hell, she meets up with Ned, they make their escape by boat bound for White Harbor and a trading galley that can sail the Narrow Sea. The “fisherman” that took them from the Fingers probably never existed. Ned and this young girl wash up on the Sisters, he gives her a bag of cash (as told by Borrell Sr.), and then after the war he shows up with a bastard baby that is traced back to this “fisherman’s daughter” in the north.

Ned also seems to know where Lyanna is after the war, as he heads straight south instead of wandering around aimlessly after lifting the siege at SE. IMO he knew exactly where she was.

**This is where I believe Ashara could possibly come into play – esp if she is still Elia’s handmaiden during the early days of RR. There were clearly feelings between Ashara and Ned, and as his return to WF via the Bite would have been prior to his forced engagement to Cat by Jon Arryn - perhaps they were both under the impression that they would reunite at Starfall to continue their relationship. (What a kick in the pants for Ned to show up later saying, “So yeah, I killed your bro, and I’m also married now, bummer.”)

Gaaaah, I hate posting from work…it has taken an hour just to type out this post!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've wondered before if Dorne might break away for good; they've always been "out there." But Jon cold still be King of the 7 Kingdoms if the Wall falls and the Wildlings settle beyond but become part of Westeros proper: the North and the REALLY FAR NORTH

While Dorne, for the past 100 yeas (ok, a little bit longer), has officially been part of the 7K, wasn't it stated somewhere (canon) that since the Rebellion, Dorne, though still an official part of Jr 7K, has done its trade mostly with the free cities?

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I have. Quite a few times, actually. I listen to them on audiobook when I'm busy doing something else.

I have two of the books now. I need three more before Winds of Winter comes out if it does come out. Wasn't it suppose to come out this year sometime?

I might have to do a reread for clues of Jon's parentage. I know it's not Ned. He may be Ned's kin not his son.

[sj4iy]

I have two of the books now. I need three more before Winds of Winter comes out if it does come out. Wasn't it suppose to come out this year sometime?

I might have to do a reread for clues of Jon's parentage. I know it's not Ned. He may be Ned's kin not his son.

There's no release date for TWoW yet.

[sj4iy]

While Dorne, for the past 100 yeas (ok, a little bit longer), has officially been part of the 7K, wasn't it stated somewhere (canon) that since the Rebellion, Dorne, though still an official part of Jr 7K, has done its trade mostly with the free cities?

Yup, they separated in all but name after the rebellion. Hence the reason Tyrion sent Myrcella out to Dorne to try to patch up relations.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

It's an interesting idea. I'm just wondering how Ned, the honorable Ned Stark, justified it to himself. The realm might have been unhappy with Aerys but they also sat back and did little, apart from Rhaegar. And besides the White Harbor bit you're speaking of, any other textual evidence--particularly from Ned's POV--that helps? Because what happens when Robert and Rhaegar meet on the Trident? Why didn't Ned interfere if he was part of a Rhaegar- conspiracy?

While Dorne, for the past 100 yeas (ok, a little bit longer), has officially been part of the 7K, wasn't it stated somewhere (canon) that since the Rebellion, Dorne, though still an official part of Jr 7K, has done its trade mostly with the free cities?

Yup, they separated in all but name after the rebellion. Hence the reason Tyrion sent Myrcella out to Dorne to try to patch up relations.

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Dorne just decided to break totally.

[stateofdissipation]

I have two of the books now. I need three more before Winds of Winter comes out if it does come out. Wasn't it suppose to come out this year sometime?

I might have to do a reread for clues of Jon's parentage. I know it's not Ned. He may be Ned's kin not his son.

GRRM.. by his usual writing speed of 1 word per minute 4.5 hours a day 5 days a week.... should have tWoW out next September.

Ned never "thinks" of Jon as his kin... he just says it to Cat and to Jon.. He also says Jon is his son. The misconception that Jon does not call Jon his son and only thinks about him as his blood... is pretty common.

Also asserting that Jon was not listed as his child when Ned makes a mental list of his children is pretty common... Jon does enter his thoughts, just not with his children with Cat.

Kin leaves a pretty narrow window of possibility (Not too much family)... Rickard's son, Brandon's son. Benjen's son, or Lyanna's son...... as Rickard and Brandon died before Jon was conceived... they are out... Benjen was just a pup...

Unless you want to go looking for Karstarks...

[John Courage]

Anyone think there is a dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb?

[BearQueen87]

GRRM.. by his usual writing speed of 1 word per minute 4.5 hours a day 5 days a week.... should have tWoW out next September.

Good to know. But of course that depends on him keeping at this speed you've put down for him. What happens if on Monday he writes 16 words/min for 8 hours, but then then on Tuesday he writes 10wpm but for 10 hours, and then Wednesday he can't write at all because PBS is airing a marathon of Joseph Campbell's interview with Bill Moyers on the Heroes Journey and he just totes gotta see it! So on Thursday he writes 12wmp for only 2 hours because gosh darn it, it's laundry day! And Friday is a day of pre-rest and Saturday is a day of thinking deep thoughts about krakens, and then Sunday is a day of rest but oh! he's just come up with a clever pun for Tyrion to say to Dany, best write that one down George!

Anyone think there is a dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb?

Perhaps, though it's not at the top of my list because I don't know where Rhaegar would get one. I think it's a Targaryen marriage cloak.

[sj4iy]

Anyone think there is a dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb?

Honestly, no. If a dragon were to hatch, it would never grow big enough to affect the outcome of the story in my opinion. Look how long it took for Dany's dragons to grow up. It would seem like a pointless addition in my mind.

[stateofdissipation]

It's an interesting idea. I'm just wondering how Ned, the honorable Ned Stark, justified it to himself. The realm might have been unhappy with Aerys but they also sat back and did little, apart from Rhaegar. And besides the White Harbor bit you're speaking of, any other textual evidence--particularly from Ned's POV--that helps? Because what happens when Robert and Rhaegar meet on the Trident? Why didn't Ned interfere if he was part of a Rhaegar- conspiracy?

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Dorne just decided to break totally.

Ned did not arrive to the site of Robert and Rhaegar's battle until men were fighting to recover the rubies...

I am looking at what Rhaegar did in the light of helping his father rather than trying to depose him...

Rhaegar was either too stupid to keep the secret of Harrenhal from his "mad" father, or he wanted him to know. After Duskendale Aerys had not left the Red Keep. Aerys; not Rhaegar, needed a meeting of the great lords to see him and solidify his rule. Rhaegar's shocking gesture to Lyanna over his own wife was no aid to his case for being king over his father. it was the opposite. If Aerys at the tournament spoiled Rhaegar's plans why did Rhaegar continue to hurt his own case.

Kidnapping Lyanna delayed and could have broken a marriage pact between the four great houses that rebelled. Aerys still had the power to deal with any individual house.

Not saying Rhaegar did not later love Lyanna or Lyanna love Rhaegar... Just trying to paint Rhaegar as loyal, rather than power grabbing and Lyanna as her father's pawn before the abduction rather than a loony wild child.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Anyone think there is a dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb?

Me. I'm hoping that I don't have to hate the Kings of Winter when they say Jon, a half Stark anyway you turn it, has no right to be there. If he's a son of a Lord or Lady of Winterfell, he belongs there, just like Catelyn's offspring do. They probably had bastards as well, so he needs not be shunned.

So I'm hoping the Wolf Kings are just upset because there's a dragon egg there that they don't like, instead of a child. Lame if they aren't more mature than that.

It had better be so. :box: :fencing:

PS: Not meant as in going to hatch, but it can also prove legitimacy, the egg in the cradle thing.

[stateofdissipation]

Good to know. But of course that depends on him keeping at this speed you've put down for him. What happens if on Monday he writes 16 words/min for 8 hours, but then then on Tuesday he writes 10wpm but for 10 hours, and then Wednesday he can't write at all because PBS is airing a marathon of Joseph Campbell's interview with Bill Moyers on the Heroes Journey and he just totes gotta see it! So on Thursday he writes 12wmp for only 2 hours because gosh darn it, it's laundry day! And Friday is a day of pre-rest and Saturday is a day of thinking deep thoughts about krakens, and then Sunday is a day of rest but oh! he's just come up with a clever pun for Tyrion to say to Dany, best write that one down George!

Perhaps, though it's not at the top of my list because I don't know where Rhaegar would get one. I think it's a Targaryen marriage cloak.

He has kept that pace for 15 years...

I may start running marathons tomorrow... or i could just do the same 3 miles I do every tuesday for the last 20 years... which do you think is more likely.

A magic grave garmet... would be all the proof I need... though it would be from my aunt.... weird...

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

GRRM.. by his usual writing speed of 1 word per minute 4.5 hours a day 5 days a week.... should have tWoW out next September.

Ned never "thinks" of Jon as his kin... he just says it to Cat and to Jon.. He also says Jon is his son. The misconception that Jon does not call Jon his son and only thinks about him as his blood... is pretty common.

Also asserting that Jon was not listed as his child when Ned makes a mental list of his children is pretty common... Jon does enter his thoughts, just not with his children with Cat.

Kin leaves a pretty narrow window of possibility (Not too much family)... Rickard's son, Brandon's son. Benjen's son, or Lyanna's son...... as Rickard and Brandon died before Jon was conceived... they are out... Benjen was just a pup...

Unless you want to go looking for Karstarks...

He would have to be Lyanna's son. If you work out the timeline from Jon's birth to Lyanna's "kidnapping" by Rhaegar. Brandon was already died by the time Jon was born. Benjen was too young still...

I wonder if there was a Stark in Winterfell during Robert's Rebellion sometimes.

On G.R.R.M: He's a turtle when it comes to his books. He wants to sure everything is prefect by the time of publication.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Benjen played the Stark in Winterfell during the Rebellion.

[BearQueen87]

PS: Not meant as in going to hatch, but it can also prove legitimacy, the egg in the cradle thing.

Yes there is that. Though, Im still not sure where they would have gotten one

A magic grave garmet... would be all the proof I need

I'm so glad you agree!

[Ser Leftwich]

There is a reason that Hoster told Brandon not to ride to KL, there is a reason that Rickard only traveled to KL after Aerys' summons, there is a reason that Jon Arryn only called banners after the Stark deaths.

Small nitpick, Hoster did not say to Brandon not to ride to KL. The "gallant fool" line is Hoster's reaction to when he learns that Brandon rode to KL, which is very different that telling Brandon not to ride to KL. Which completely changes a huge aspect of this hypothesis.

ETA: Actually, this is not a small nitpick, it is a massive mistake on the reading/interpretation of the text.

ETFA: As far as we know, there is no lag between Rickard finding out that Brandon is captive in KL and when the summons from Aerys arrives, it could have been simultaneous.