R+L =J v.105

[Ghost's Shadow]

No need to post things 5 times.

[stateofdissipation]

This doesn't preclude Rhaegar and Lyanna from running off, though. Martin's written unlikely storylines before. Like with Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark. Robb was in an arranged marriage and eloped to marry out of sense of duty and possibly love. His grisly end is why people, historically, fell in line with their arranged marriages. Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together, unintentionally causing a war that costs family members on both side, and toppling the Targaryen dynasty as a result would fit his style. It shows why nobles wouldn't really run off together for the sake of love or prophecy or what not.

This doesn't preclude Rhaegar and Lyanna from running off, though.

We have the kidnapping from two sources... backed by a GRRM interview with time....

This does not preclude running off... and Syrio surviving the fight with Trant is not precluded.

The love story after the kidnapping is alive and well.... why dispute the account that was given?

Martin's written unlikely storylines before.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant.--GRRM same interview cited earlier

Unlikely. yes... self described story of a "bad author" no. Come to think of it we do not have an example of a woman running away from an arranged marriage (The Karstark-- the arranged marriage was done by her uncle who was trying to get her brother killed...the marriage her father arranged was not questioned... the groom died)

Like with Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark.

The king of the North believing that he had to make right dishonoring a girl.. over keeping his promise to marry a Frey--a non specified Frey-- is not the same thing as the daughter of a lord disobeying her father because she felt like it...

Robb was in an arranged marriage and eloped to marry out of sense of duty and possibly love.

Rob's marriage was part of his treaty with Frey... not something arranged... he chose it, he had the option of refusing. Robb did not elope, He married.

His grisly end is why people, historically, fell in line with their arranged marriages

The marriage was not arranged, nobody could tell the King of the north to marry... it was agreed... he broke his word.. not disobeyed his father. There is hardly a one to one relationship between arranged marriages and grisly ends..

Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together, unintentionally causing a war that costs family members on both side, and toppling the Targaryen dynasty as a result would fit his style.

It also makes them both morons... and self described bad writing fitting his style is debatable.

It shows why nobles wouldn't really run off together for the sake of love or prophecy or what not.

It also makes Rheagar and Lyanna idiots.. a reaction was foreseeable and predictable... easily...

Rhaegar kidnapping lyanna prevented a marriage bond between the North, the Stormlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands... the houses that once united brought down the Targaryens. The kidnapping was politically justifiable. The love an unforeseen event.

[BearQueen87]

Rhaegar kidnapping lyanna prevented a marriage bond between the North, the Stormlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands... the houses that once united brought down the Targaryens. The kidnapping was politically justifiable. The love an unforeseen event.

There's another option that someone brought up in a previous thread: Lyanna was kidnapped but that L and R had discussed running off together previously, but R did not inform L when it would happen. So when she taken, it looks like a kidnapping.

[Addam of Hull]

This doesn't preclude Rhaegar and Lyanna from running off, though.

We have the kidnapping from two sources... backed by a GRRM interview with time....

This does not preclude running off... and Syrio surviving the fight with Trant is not precluded.

The love story after the kidnapping is alive and well.... why dispute the account that was given?

Martin's written unlikely storylines before.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant.--GRRM same interview cited earlier

Unlikely. yes... self described story of a "bad author" no. Come to think of it we do not have an example of a woman running away from an arranged marriage (The Karstark-- the arranged marriage was done by her uncle who was trying to get her brother killed...the marriage her father arranged was not questioned... the groom died)

Like with Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark.

The king of the North believing that he had to make right dishonoring a girl.. over keeping his promise to marry a Frey--a non specified Frey-- is not the same thing as the daughter of a lord disobeying her father because she felt like it...

Robb was in an arranged marriage and eloped to marry out of sense of duty and possibly love.

Rob's marriage was part of his treaty with Frey... not something arranged... he chose it, he had the option of refusing. Robb did not elope, He married.

His grisly end is why people, historically, fell in line with their arranged marriages

The marriage was not arranged, nobody could tell the King of the north to marry... it was agreed... he broke his word.. not disobeyed his father. There is hardly a one to one relationship between arranged marriages and grisly ends..

Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together, unintentionally causing a war that costs family members on both side, and toppling the Targaryen dynasty as a result would fit his style.

It also makes them both morons... and self described bad writing fitting his style is debatable.

It shows why nobles wouldn't really run off together for the sake of love or prophecy or what not.

It also makes Rheagar and Lyanna idiots.. a reaction was foreseeable and predictable... easily...

Rhaegar kidnapping lyanna prevented a marriage bond between the North, the Stormlands, the Vale, and the Riverlands... the houses that once united brought down the Targaryens. The kidnapping was politically justifiable. The love an unforeseen event.

Martin's specific concern -- what makes these sort of storylines bad -- is that they don't address the reality of said class structure. The reality is that nobles didn't run off together because of political ramifications. It causes issues. If someone writes said storyline and addresses these issues, say by showing the political fallout of running away together, then it ceases to be bad writing because it acknowledges the reality of the situation: that two members of the aristocracy can not run away together without severe ramifications.

[stateofdissipation]

Martin's specific concern -- what makes these sort of storylines bad -- is that they don't address the reality of said class structure. The reality is that nobles didn't run off together because of political ramifications. It causes issues. If someone writes said storyline and addresses these issues, say by showing the political fallout of running away together, then it ceases to be bad writing because it acknowledges the reality of the situation: that two members of the aristocracy can not run away together without severe ramifications.

in case you missed it the first Martin's statement:

There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned..--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

Notably that does not include a because...

This is a statement of GRRM's understanding of the practice.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant.--GR

GRRM did say bad writers do not seem to realize what the structures they adopt mean... I do admit that it does not include adopting a structure, understanding what it means, and choosing to disregard it. Somehow that does seem worse.

GRRM abandoning his stated understanding of the practice of arranged marriage is an interesting assertion......... however, GRRM has not done so demonstrably.....

It is a nice bit of fanfiction and headcanon... it is not in the books... Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna is... from a Dany and Robert...

Kidnapping based on two sources that are never contradicted makes sense... the running off based solely on Rhaegar playing a song so sad it made Lyanna sniffle. does not.

[sj4iy]

If Jon has been raised as Rhaegar's true born, he most likely would have adopted more of the Targaryen customs, and obviously name.

Without a doubt.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

What about Ned Stark + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow? This is GRRM here so we cannot dismiss another incest couple!

Ned's timeline and Lyanna's timeline are different from each other during the war. Ned is fighting in the war expect when he wedded and bedded Cat then he went back to war. Lyanna was off with Rhaegar making babies.

[Kingmonkey]

On the subject of GRRM on arranged marriage, what he actually says is:

...almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

Wouldn't run off with the stable boy is not the same as wouldn't run off with a prince. GRRM is not saying that nobody ever got married outside an arranged marriage, he's objecting to the normalisation of the idea of a noble lady in a medieval fantasy having any say in the matter.

Of course such things did happen. There was a law passed under Richard II of England specifying that:

Against those offenders and ravishers of ladies, and the daughters of noblemen, and other women, in every part of the said realm, in thee days offending more violently, and much more than they were wont, it is ordained and stablished, that wheresoever and whensoever such ladies, daughters and other women aforesaid be ravished, and after such rape to consent to such ravishers, that as well the ravishers as they that be ravished, and every of them, be from thenceforth disabled, and by the same deed be unable to have or challenge all inheritance, dower or joint feoffment after the death of their husbands and ancestors.

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them. It's particularly interesting to look at the language and circumstance. West's daughter was abducted at sword-point, and the law above uses words like "ravished" and "raped". It should be remembered that people had a different view of the world back then. The marriage of a nobleman's children represented opportunities for wealth and advancement, and was his to dispose of. Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England, even if Lyanna had gone willingly, it would still have been considered as abduction and rape. We know that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, but we don't know who those swords were pointing to. This may give some interesting insight into Dany's quite positive attitude to being abducted at sword-point by someone who loves you.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he's a research-oriented writer. I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors" he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Lyanna was pretty feisty like her niece Arya. Rickard would have let her ride horses and played with the boys. He would have let her do it even if she was the Lady of Winterfell.

[BearQueen87]

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he's a research-oriented writer. I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors" he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

1) Interesting read over all

2) I pretty much think GRRM is passing familiar is most everything

3) I agree with your point that even if the swords were pointing elsewhere it still would have been thought of as abduction. And if Lyanna knew what was going on all along or had a passing inkling, it wouldn't have mattered to the eyes of others.

Lyanna was pretty feisty like her niece Arya. Rickard would have let her ride horses and played with the boys. He would have let her do it even if she was the Lady of Winterfell.

Mmm...well...I also think he sent her to Harrenhal before Brandon's wedding for "refinement." He wanted Lyanna to be a proper Southron lady. Now, would he have turned down the Crown Prince had Rhaegar asked for Lyanna? Nope, not a chance. But I do wonder what Rickard's first thought was when he heard about the abduction. Brandon was in a lather for revenge, but what about Rickard?

[mambru]

On the subject of GRRM on arranged marriage, what he actually says is:

Wouldn't run off with the stable boy is not the same as wouldn't run off with a prince. GRRM is not saying that nobody ever got married outside an arranged marriage, he's objecting to the normalisation of the idea of a noble lady in a medieval fantasy having any say in the matter.

Of course such things did happen. There was a law passed under Richard II of England specifying that:

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them. It's particularly interesting to look at the language and circumstance. West's daughter was abducted at sword-point, and the law above uses words like "ravished" and "raped". It should be remembered that people had a different view of the world back then. The marriage of a nobleman's children represented opportunities for wealth and advancement, and was his to dispose of. Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England, even if Lyanna had gone willingly, it would still have been considered as abduction and rape. We know that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, but we don't know who those swords were pointing to. This may give some interesting insight into Dany's quite positive attitude to being abducted at sword-point by someone who loves you.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he's a research-oriented writer. I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors" he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

I think that Dany's positive attitude about being abducted at swordpoint by a totally hot and irresistible guy (as she idealistically pictures Rhaegar as being) is at least somewhat more due to her own personal issues over the Stockholmish Syndrome start to her marriage than to anything in general about women's abductions at swordpoint in Westeros.

[BearQueen87]

I think that Dany's positive attitude about being abducted at swordpoint by a totally hot and irresistible guy (as she idealistically pictures Rhaegar as being) is at least somewhat more due to her own personal issues over the Stockholmish Syndrome start to her marriage than to anything in general about women's abductions at swordpoint in Westeros.

It also has a lot to do with how Dany views romance in general--she's generally in fairy tale mode. The knight in shinning armor should come rescue his lady fair from the big bad man who seeks to take her away from him. Her views on romance are a bit..hmmm..young? Is that a good word to use here? I'm going to use it anyway.

And people always seem to forget the next part of that sentence: "but the queen knew that was folly." (note that it's the girl in Dany that think the sword thing in romantic. I wont' go into here cause...not the place...but woman vs queen vs girl is a very big thing in Dany's overall arc)

[Alia of the knife]

Wow, 105 already.

On the subject of GRRM on arranged marriage, what he actually says is:

Wouldn't run off with the stable boy is not the same as wouldn't run off with a prince. GRRM is not saying that nobody ever got married outside an arranged marriage, he's objecting to the normalisation of the idea of a noble lady in a medieval fantasy having any say in the matter.

Of course such things did happen. There was a law passed under Richard II of England specifying that:

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them. It's particularly interesting to look at the language and circumstance. West's daughter was abducted at sword-point, and the law above uses words like "ravished" and "raped". It should be remembered that people had a different view of the world back then. The marriage of a nobleman's children represented opportunities for wealth and advancement, and was his to dispose of. Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England, even if Lyanna had gone willingly, it would still have been considered as abduction and rape. We know that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, but we don't know who those swords were pointing to. This may give some interesting insight into Dany's quite positive attitude to being abducted at sword-point by someone who loves you.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he's a research-oriented writer. I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors" he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

GRRM is VERY knowledgeable about this time period, short of a historian, and this work is done in the tradition of "The War of The Roses," with the Targaryens acting as parallels to the Plantaganets.

I think what GRRM is speaking to are the Fabio-esque, historical romances. While there may have been a few noble ladies who ran off with someone they weren't supposed to, they paid a price for it.

There is many a story about a noble woman either taking the veil, or in the most severe cases, being walled up in the family keep for dishonoring the family.

Its also a fallacy that the families wanted to force the couples to marry. They actually wanted the couples willing because a hostile coupling really didn't do anything towards solidifying alliances, but made them worse, thought certainly it would have been HEAVILY encouraged on the part of the girls family to be amenable.

But since it took a mere twenty-four hours in a mans company not her family member, a woman's reputation would have been destroyed as well as her worth, therefore "marriage" to the man in question who compromised her was the only way to preserve her honor, hence the tactic of "kidnapping" or abduction got around the rules of the day.

[stateofdissipation]

On the subject of GRRM on arranged marriage, what he actually says is:

Wouldn't run off with the stable boy is not the same as wouldn't run off with a prince. GRRM is not saying that nobody ever got married outside an arranged marriage, he's objecting to the normalisation of the idea of a noble lady in a medieval fantasy having any say in the matter.

Of course such things did happen. There was a law passed under Richard II of England specifying that:

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them. It's particularly interesting to look at the language and circumstance. West's daughter was abducted at sword-point, and the law above uses words like "ravished" and "raped". It should be remembered that people had a different view of the world back then. The marriage of a nobleman's children represented opportunities for wealth and advancement, and was his to dispose of. Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England, even if Lyanna had gone willingly, it would still have been considered as abduction and rape. We know that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, but we don't know who those swords were pointing to. This may give some interesting insight into Dany's quite positive attitude to being abducted at sword-point by someone who loves you.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he's a research-oriented writer. I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors" he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

On the subject of GRRM on arranged marriage, what he actually says is:

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, ...almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

Gee... what came before your "..." changes quite a bit...

Wouldn't run off with the stable boy is not the same as wouldn't run off with a prince.

GRRM addresses things that do not square with history. He uses an example --NOTE the for example.---he used the example of running off with the stable boy constantly found on television and in historical fiction... Your example does not match GRRM's example. correct.

GRRM is not saying that nobody ever got married outside an arranged marriage,

He is saying there were thousands and thousands of arranged marriages and people went through with them. That is the way it was. It was not questioned.

he's objecting to the normalisation of the idea of a noble lady in a medieval fantasy having any say in the matter.

He noted an example of something found in historical fiction and television that does not square with history. He also states what did happen.

Of course such things did happen There was a law passed under Richard II of England specifying that:

Against those offenders and ravishers of ladies, and the daughters of noblemen, and other women, in every part of the said realm, in thee days offending more violently, and much more than they were wont, it is ordained and stablished, that wheresoever and whensoever such ladies, daughters and other women aforesaid be ravished, and after such rape to consent to such ravishers, that as well the ravishers as they that be ravished, and every of them, be from thenceforth disabled, and by the same deed be unable to have or challenge all inheritance, dower or joint feoffment after the death of their husbands and ancestors.

against rapists

When a rapist rapes a woman and the woman later consents... the rapist and the woman may not challenge inheritance after the deaths of the raped woman's husband or ancestor.

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them.

No idea where you got the likelihood of the abduction was arranged, It is not on the link you provided.

It's particularly interesting to look at the language and circumstance. West's daughter was abducted at sword-point,

Notably in the link you provided... it was West, his sister, and his mother that were assaulted... not daughter that was

and the law above uses words like "ravished" and "raped". It should be remembered that people had a different view of the world back then.

Remembered

The marriage of a nobleman's children represented opportunities for wealth and advancement, and was his to dispose of.

OK...in the case you cited it was a nobleman's sister... There is also no mention of the sister being betrothed,

Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England,

A servant kidnapped and ravished the sister of a nobleman... and she later consented,

even if Lyanna had gone willingly, it would still have been considered as abduction and rape.

The case was of a woman being ravished and later consented.... but ok.

We know that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, but we don't know who those swords were pointing to.

I will not use that you established that it did not matter, Lyanna was abducted and raped.

This may give some interesting insight into Dany's quite positive attitude to being abducted at sword-point by someone who loves you.

Dany's interesting insight, is of being taken by force regardless of her wishes... It was confirmation of the depth her captain's love for her... not a sign of consent and mutual affection.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one,he's a research-oriented writer.

As it has no bearing on running away from an arranged marriage... this tidbit of history would not alter his statement on the subject.... It is notable that you did not find an example that counters GRRM's assertion of the practice of arranged marriage.

I really don't think that when he talks of these "bad authors"

The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant.

he's moaning about Shakespeare letting Desdemona marry Othello. He's thinking about stories where Prince Daruunaaar of X'Tha'an calls a tavern girl with a mysterious birthmark a "saucy wench" and gropes her arse, and when she slaps his face mocks his warty nose, his retainers all laugh and tell him that "that feisty one is too much for you, m'lord" rather than beating her senseless if she's really lucky.

They (bad authors) have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

or what he said... he did a pretty good job at leaving no doubt as to his meaning...

I included his statement on the way arranged marriage worked... hardly quoting out of context... I included a link to the article. It is worth reading.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

1) Interesting read over all

2) I pretty much think GRRM is passing familiar is most everything

3) I agree with your point that even if the swords were pointing elsewhere it still would have been thought of as abduction. And if Lyanna knew what was going on all along or had a passing inkling, it wouldn't have mattered to the eyes of others.

Mmm...well...I also think he sent her to Harrenhal before Brandon's wedding for "refinement." He wanted Lyanna to be a proper Southron lady. Now, would he have turned down the Crown Prince had Rhaegar asked for Lyanna? Nope, not a chance. But I do wonder what Rickard's first thought was when he heard about the abduction. Brandon was in a lather for revenge, but what about Rickard?

Rickard would have to make a decision. Of course, he probably wanted to go after Rhaegar as much as Brandon and Robert did. He was the father.

[Kingmonkey]

It has been suggested that this law was a response to a then notorious case of the abduction of Sir Thomas West's daughter by a family retainer, who she subsequently married -- probably the entire abduction was arranged between the two of them.

No idea where you got the likelihood of the abduction was arranged, It is not on the link you provided.

(snip)

Notably in the link you provided... it was West, his sister, and his mother that were assaulted... not daughter that was

Ah sorry about that, Wikipedia seemed like a convenient link for a short reference, but I should have read the page more closely. Short answer, Wikipedia fail.

There's a ton of stuff available online about the case and the related subject matter if you want to find out more, have a look here.

For example, you'll find a link to Corrine J. Sander's Rape and Ravishment in the Literature of Medieval England, where she says:

"The case reveals how the shock value of rape might be employed politically to characterise an abduction that was probably an elopement of an heiress to a suitor without inheritance. The statues became the tool if families rather than of women themselves, with the result that cases of 'real rape' are more and more difficult to entangle from those of abduction or elopement."

Thus, had the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation happened in late 14th century England,

A servant kidnapped and ravished the sister of a nobleman... and she later consented,

Consider what's being said here. You can't consent to something after it has happened. The important bit to understand here is it is not the daughter's consent but the father's consent that is relevant to whether it was considered abduction and rape. Note the important part of this is that by giving her consent, she is considered partially liable for the offense of her own "kidnapping" and "rape". These terms did not mean to people then what they mean to people now.

Thus, as far as Brandon and Rickard and Robert would be concerned, if the same mores were in place in Westeros, it could have been perfectly normal for them to consider Rhaegar to have kidnapped and raped Lyanna even if they knew she had consented. Her lack of consent wouldn't be what made it kidnap and rape in their eyes, Rickard's would.

Of course it can be debated how much of this GRRM knows, but I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one,he's a research-oriented writer.

As it has no bearing on running away from an arranged marriage... this tidbit of history would not alter his statement on the subject.... It is notable that you did not find an example that counters GRRM's assertion of the practice of arranged marriage.

Well off the top of my head, a vat load medieval female saints -- but as I wasn't trying to counter GRRM's assertion, I didn't bother.

What I was pointing out is that GRRM never said that people never ran away from arranged marriages. He said that they didn't run off with the stableboy. "Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy." His objection is that it is quite normal in the fiction. "[For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened."

I did qualify his follow-up about people going through with arranged marriages (which was not the subject of the "this never fucking happened" bit) with the point that sometimes women *did* try to have their own say in the matter. The specific example I gave is that; I don't know if she had run away from a marriage that had already been arranged, but by eloping she was at least running away from a marriage that would have been arranged. This is the entire point of Sir Thomas West's petition.

If you really need an example, and don't think that West was noble enough to substitute for Lyanna, will the Queen of France and sister of the King of England do? Mary Tudor was married to the king of France, who died without issue. The new king tried to arrange another marriage for her. Henry recalled her to England to arrange a new marriage to his own advantage instead, and she secretly married the guy Henry sent to fetch her. Can't really get clearer or more noble than that.

Henry's niece attempted it too; she planned to marry a political opponent of his, but he found out and threw the pair of them in the Tower.

No, as a practice it wasn't questioned, as GRRM said. It was normal. Unlike the fiction he's complaining about where refusing to go through with it was normal. That doesn't mean that nobody ever ever ever tried to avoid it, it means it was considered abnormal, outrageous, and illegal to do so.

[lareine]

With regards to arranged marriages amongst medieval nobility, I think it's also important to remember that sons were subjected to the will of their families too. Though they weren't regarded as the chattel of their father's the way daughters were, sons who defied their father's marital plans could also be severely punished or see their plans thwarted.

For example, in 1523 Henry Percy, the heir to the 5th Earl of Northumberland became enamored with a young Anne Boelyn and the two entered into a secret betrothal. Unfortunately, Henry Percy's father had already betrothed him to Lady Anne Talbot many years before and when the Earl of Northumberland got wind of Henry and Anne's engagement, he enlisted the aid of none other than Cardinal Wolsey to 'fix' the situation. Anne was quietly exiled from court for awhile and sent to her family's country estate and Henry Percy married Lady Anne Talbot as his father had decreed.

Anne was very lucky it was handled so discreetly. If it had become common knowledge, she'd have been viewed as damaged goods, and her reputation would have been easily ruined.

[BearQueen87]

With regards to arranged marriages amongst medieval nobility, I think it's also important to remember that sons were subjected to the will of their families too. Though they weren't regarded as the chattel of their father's the way daughters were, sons who defied their father's marital plans could also be severely punished or see their plans thwarted.

Think about Brandon. He was "given" to Riverrun the same way Cat was being given to WF. Don't think Brandon particularly wanted to marry Cat but Rickard has those Southron ambitions.

[stateofdissipation]

Ah sorry about that, Wikipedia seemed like a convenient link for a short reference, but I should have read the page more closely. Short answer, Wikipedia fail.

There's a ton of stuff available online about the case and the related subject matter if you want to find out more, have a look here.

For example, you'll find a link to Corrine J. Sander's Rape and Ravishment in the Literature of Medieval England, where she says:

"The case reveals how the shock value of rape might be employed politically to characterise an abduction that was probably an elopement of an heiress to a suitor without inheritance. The statues became the tool if families rather than of women themselves, with the result that cases of 'real rape' are more and more difficult to entangle from those of abduction or elopement."

Consider what's being said here. You can't consent to something after it has happened. The important bit to understand here is it is not the daughter's consent but the father's consent that is relevant to whether it was considered abduction and rape. Note the important part of this is that by giving her consent, she is considered partially liable for the offense of her own "kidnapping" and "rape". These terms did not mean to people then what they mean to people now.

Thus, as far as Brandon and Rickard and Robert would be concerned, if the same mores were in place in Westeros, it could have been perfectly normal for them to consider Rhaegar to have kidnapped and raped Lyanna even if they knew she had consented. Her lack of consent wouldn't be what made it kidnap and rape in their eyes, Rickard's would.

Well off the top of my head, a vat load medieval female saints -- but as I wasn't trying to counter GRRM's assertion, I didn't bother.

What I was pointing out is that GRRM never said that people never ran away from arranged marriages. He said that they didn't run off with the stableboy. "Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy." His objection is that it is quite normal in the fiction. "[For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened."

I did qualify his follow-up about people going through with arranged marriages (which was not the subject of the "this never fucking happened" bit) with the point that sometimes women *did* try to have their own say in the matter. The specific example I gave is that; I don't know if she had run away from a marriage that had already been arranged, but by eloping she was at least running away from a marriage that would have been arranged. This is the entire point of Sir Thomas West's petition.

If you really need an example, and don't think that West was noble enough to substitute for Lyanna, will the Queen of France and sister of the King of England do? Mary Tudor was married to the king of France, who died without issue. The new king tried to arrange another marriage for her. Henry recalled her to England to arrange a new marriage to his own advantage instead, and she secretly married the guy Henry sent to fetch her. Can't really get clearer or more noble than that.

Henry's niece attempted it too; she planned to marry a political opponent of his, but he found out and threw the pair of them in the Tower.

No, as a practice it wasn't questioned, as GRRM said. It was normal. Unlike the fiction he's complaining about where refusing to go through with it was normal. That doesn't mean that nobody ever ever ever tried to avoid it, it means it was considered abnormal, outrageous, and illegal to do so.

"The case reveals how the shock value of rape might be employed politically to characterise an abduction that was probably an elopement of an heiress to a suitor without inheritance. The statues became the tool if families rather than of women themselves, with the result that cases of 'real rape' are more and more difficult to entangle from those of abduction or elopement."

Until the law, a girl who ran off, could claim that she was raped but is ok with it now and inherit... from her father or husband. A woman could leave her husband wait until he died then claim his estate because she was raped, her lover would not be charged with the rape because she now consents. If she claimed to have initially consented she would have been disinherited.to

On an interesting note your source is from literature of a period. Historical literature=/=history.

Consider what's being said here. You can't consent to something after it has happened.

That is the loophole the law you cited intended to close.

The important bit to understand here is it is not the daughter's consent but the father's consent that is relevant to whether it was considered abduction and rape.

The law you cited had the woman's consent as the determining factor. If she consented, she was disinherited. Notably absent from the citation are the family's judgment of consent or abduction.

Note the important part of this is that by giving her consent, she is considered partially liable for the offense of her own "kidnapping" and "rape".

By consenting she is absolving her kidnapper/rapist. In doing so she is no longer a victim. There is no offense. There is also no defense for leaving her husband or family.

These terms did not mean to people then what they mean to people now.

OK... we did not bring up either the old terms nor the new... but operated under the assumption that the terms we used were from the period.

Thus, as far as Brandon and Rickard and Robert would be concerned, if the same mores were in place in Westeros,

Aside from that we have yet to cite a case where a relative's characterization of a rape or kidnapping has been used in place of the victim's statement.

it could have been perfectly normal for them to consider Rhaegar to have kidnapped and raped Lyanna even if they knew she had consented.

The case you cited had the relatives denying the kidnap and rape, not confirming it.

Her lack of consent wouldn't be what made it kidnap and rape in their eyes, Rickard's would.

Again this does not relate to the source you provided.

What I was pointing out is that GRRM never said that people never ran away from arranged marriages.

There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned..--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

Absolutely correct... he said they people went through with them without question

I did qualify his follow-up about people going through with arranged marriages (which was not the subject of the "this never fucking happened" bit) with the point that sometimes women *did* try to have their own say in the matter.

The specific example I gave is that;

I don't know if she had run away from a marriage that had already been arranged,

If you don't know here..

but by eloping she was at least running away from a marriage that would have been arranged.

you don't know here..

This is the entire point of Sir Thomas West's petition.

The entire point of the petition is to disinherit the sister.

If you really need an example, and don't think that West was noble enough to substitute for Lyanna,

I think a case where the girl claims rape and the family denies it... is not an example of the the family claiming rape and the girl denying it. The nobility of the person was not questioned. the relevance was.

will the Queen of France and sister of the King of England do?

West did quite fine... however it did not relate..

Mary Tudor was married to the king of France, who died without issue. The new king tried to arrange another marriage for her. Henry recalled her to England to arrange a new marriage to his own advantage instead, and she secretly married the guy Henry sent to fetch her.

There was not an arranged marriage in this example. There is an attempt to arrange a marriage.

Can't really get clearer or more noble than that.

I highly doubt you can get any more noble or more clear. This is another way of saying I doubt you will find a historical example of a woman not going through with an arranged marriage.

I do now recall an objection based on nobility... it was yours... "Rhaegar was no stableboy" You then proceeded to provide an example of the noblewoman running off with a stable boy. (though not from an arranged marriage and with the woman--not her family-- alleging abduction.)

Henry's niece attempted it too; she planned to marry a political opponent of his, but he found out and threw the pair of them in the Tower.

Again the example lacks an arranged marriage and the girl that refuses to go through with it.

No, as a practice it wasn't questioned, as GRRM said. It was normal. Unlike the fiction he's complaining about where refusing to go through with it was normal.

Normal like wearing pants.

That doesn't mean that nobody ever ever ever tried to avoid it,

OK... lacking an example from history, do we have another from aSoIaF? Lyanna is specified as kidnapped. Is there a woman that has been betrothed and opts to flee over marriage, or chooses another husband?

it means it was considered abnormal, outrageous, and illegal to do so.

The legality normalcy and outrage are not covered... as we do not have an example of it happening.

If Lyanna opted to run away rather than marry her betrothed, the event lacks historical precedence and is alone in the series.

I am actually for Lyanna loved Rhaegar... because of the dead black rose petals she was clutching when she died.... I can't swing Lyanna sniffling over a sad song into her losing her mind.

The fact remains Rhaegar's actions disrupted a marriage pact between the four houses that brought down the Targaryens.

An unintended rebellion because of a planned love

or

An unintended love because of a planned rebellion.

Rhaegar's actions caused the rebellion

or

Rhaegar's actions failed to stop the rebellion

[sabrecmc]

I think GRRM hasn't read a whole lot of bodice-rippers, lol. I, on the other hand, am a total expert on that. The girl never runs off with the stable boy...unless it is a Duke or something in disguise pretending to be a stable boy for *waves hand* reasons. Or, if the guy is poor when they meet, he somehow manages to think she doesn't love him because of this (but is wrong about that), runs off and becomes a success and then drama ensues, but they end up together. That is the historical romance genre, at least in the modern era.

On topic, I think Lyanna was a willing participant just because of how strong-willed she has been presented in story and, meta-wise, heroes are not typically born of rape.