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R+L =J v.105


Jon Weirgaryen

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I will leave off Jon being younger than Robb... and the logical question as to why Ned would claim him to be younger and make him a bastard born to a married man.. but ok.. I will also leave off the pregnant upon the shore... Though I took that as one of the givens in the post i replied to rather than inventing it myself.

We do not have months within years.... so using years is pretty pointless We do have known events and given times between them. Jon being born in 282 and Robb being born in 283--- means their ages are from 2 days to 728 days apart.... December 31 282 to Jan 1 283 or Jan 1 282 to December 31 283.

Correct, we do not know if Robb was born during or after the war. We also do not know if Jon was born during or after the war. It depends on "thereabouts" the time it takes to get from KL to toj over Storm's End... and when the war was "over."

We have an idea of how long it took Ned to travel to the sisters. It is a part of a journey that started at the Ayrie. Ned went to Winterfell to Riverrun, to the Stony Sept, to the Trident and on to King's Landing in "nearly a year." Ned's travel to the sisters took less than a year.

The part of the journey to Winterfell is unknown... including how long Ned walked.---

anyhow... I did not mean to exclude Lyanna being in the north... after Brandon rode south because Rhaegar had abducted her... after Rickard had ridden to answer the charges against Brandon... and after Jon Arryn reported that Aerys had called for Ned's and Robert's heads.... and after Jon Arryn had called his banners...

Though I am pretty sure I did not exclude that... i excluded a child conceived a year earlier from being a child that was conceived 8 or 9 months or thereabouts earlier.

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Small thing, I never said that Jon could have been born in 282AC.. I said conceived.. Like, conceived in month 10 of 282AC, born in month 7 of 283AC. We definitly know Jon's birth year.

Just to clear things up, I don't believe in the fisherman's daughter story for a second. Not even with this new interpretation of it.

I was just trying to point out an error in argumentation that I saw.

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*blinks*

I honestly have no idea what is going on here.

To restate:

My theory is that Lyanna is the FD.

Ned smuggles her out of the Sisters at the start of the Rebellion, after the proverbial excrement has hit the air conditioning over her abduction-that-might-not-have-been and their father and brother have been killed.

This FD daughter supposedly 9 mos later gives Ned a bastard son named Jon. Lyanna births a son toward Rebellion's end that Ned claims is his bastard Jon.

The FD story is not to set up another Jon's mom theory, but a theory on 1) how Lyanna got to Dorne where she gave birth, 2) Ned's involvement in Lyanna's story.

I'm not sure how this is being misinterpreted.

I don't see how this works at all. If Ned had Lyanna, the last thing he'd do is take her anywhere but Winterfell, pregnant or not. He wouldn't smuggle her here or there...he'd want her home, safe and sound.

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If this plot mechanism isn't plausible, what are the alternative explanations for how Rhaegar/Lyanna/2 KG got to Dorne without drawing attention?



Genuinely curious. I haven't seen any that made me instantly think, "huh, that makes total sense."


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Small thing, I never said that Jon could have been born in 282AC.. I said conceived.. Like, conceived in month 10 of 282AC, born in month 7 of 283AC. We definitly know Jon's birth year.

Just to clear things up, I don't believe in the fisherman's daughter story for a second. Not even with this new interpretation of it.

I was just trying to point out an error in argumentation that I saw.

Conception and birth... same thing... if we only use years... it puts things between a day and 2 years minus a day apart. Years are not very helpful--- best to go from known times between events..

The new interpretation... has Ned smuggling his sister past himself... He is in charge of the North, he is in the North....

GRRM did state he is never specific with dates.... he really never is.

Asserting something cannot work because of GRRM's dates... very difficult to say the least. The questions of ages and times of birth... can be raised but not answered.

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If this plot mechanism isn't plausible, what are the alternative explanations for how Rhaegar/Lyanna/2 KG got to Dorne without drawing attention?

Genuinely curious. I haven't seen any that made me instantly think, "huh, that makes total sense."

...cloaks? Riding in the dark and staying away from inns?

Really, it's not hard for four people who want to stay hidden to stay hidden if they want to, especially though sparsely populated country. That's not at all implausible. I don't see why someone would think that Rhaegar and Lyanna along with two KG couldn't find a way to not be noticed as they made their way South.

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If this plot mechanism isn't plausible, what are the alternative explanations for how Rhaegar/Lyanna/2 KG got to Dorne without drawing attention?

Genuinely curious. I haven't seen any that made me instantly think, "huh, that makes total sense."

We really do not need an alternate explanation for how R and L and the KG got to Dorne...

We know they ended up there...

We do not know if they attracted attention or not. However they did attract enough attention for Hightower and Ned to find the tower.

Lyanna was abducted at an unknown time from an unknown location...

an unknown time later starting at an unknown point Brandon rode to King's Landing looking for Rhaegar

an unknown time later starting at an unknown point Rickard went to King's Landing to answer charges against Brandon.

an unknown time later Jon Arryn calls his banners.

Almost a year plus 950 miles later Ned finds Lyanna in Dorne with three kingsguard.

Lyanna's method of travel is pretty far down on the list of unknowns...

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Can't be 5 months for travel, we know that Ned is gone about 12 months and it would mean that Robb would be much younger.

That makes no sense to me. No, Robb isn't much younger, and the word is year. Give or take. Catelyn's debatable Moat Cailin memory makes it likely that Ned picked Robb and Catelyn up on his own journey north, then it all fits perfectly.

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That makes no sense to me. No, Robb isn't much younger, and the word is year. Give or take. Catelyn's debatable Moat Cailin memory makes it likely that Ned picked Robb and Catelyn up on his own journey north, then it all fits perfectly.

I'm saying that Catelyn said that Ned was gone for a year after they got married.

She got pregnant first try. That means that when Ned returned to her, Robb was about 3 months old, because she would have been pregnant for 9 months of that year they were apart.

That's how my math works.

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Conception and birth... same thing... if we only use years... it puts things between a day and 2 years minus a day apart. Years are not very helpful--- best to go from known times between events..

The new interpretation... has Ned smuggling his sister past himself... He is in charge of the North, he is in the North....

GRRM did state he is never specific with dates.... he really never is.

Asserting something cannot work because of GRRM's dates... very difficult to say the least. The questions of ages and times of birth... can be raised but not answered.

GRRM is known to be specific on birth years, according to Westeros.org. At least there where it matters. His main characters.

In any case, conception and birth are definitely not the same thing. There's 9 months in between those two.

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She got pregnant first try. That means that when Ned returned to her, Robb was about 3 months old, because she would have been pregnant for 9 months of that year they were apart.

happy :)

And then they travel from RR to WF.

There Catelyn sees Jon Snow for the first time.

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If this plot mechanism isn't plausible, what are the alternative explanations for how Rhaegar/Lyanna/2 KG got to Dorne without drawing attention?

Genuinely curious. I haven't seen any that made me instantly think, "huh, that makes total sense."

They might have attracted attention but no one knew what to make of it. And by the time the word spread, "Prince Rhaegar has Lyanna Stark," no one knows where RL were going when the witnesses saw them.

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GRRM is known to be specific on birth years, according to Westeros.org. At least there where it matters. His main characters.

In any case, conception and birth are definitely not the same thing. There's 9 months in between those two.

Correct we have the birth years... which gives us age difference between characters from 1 day to 729 days.

OK Robb's conception year vs Jon's conception year... same difference from 1 to 729 days.

Robb's birth year and Jon's conception year... or vice versa 1 to 459 days.. that accounts for the 9 months.. 270 days.

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We really do not need an alternate explanation for how R and L and the KG got to Dorne...

We know they ended up there...

.

I dunno, if the "how" is connected to the "why", it could be very important to the storyline. We shall see.

We do not know if they attracted attention or not. However they did attract enough attention for Hightower and Ned to find the tower.

Or, Hightower and Ned both knew where they were the entire time, which also has big connotations for the story, were one to subscribe to that. Again, we shall see.

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.

We do not know if they attracted attention or not. However they did attract enough attention for Hightower and Ned to find the tower.

I don't think they attracted attention. Someone told Hightower and Ned where to go. (Unless Pretty Pig is right)

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I dunno, if the "how" is connected to the "why", it could be very important to the storyline. We shall see.

Or, Hightower and Ned both knew where they were the entire time, which also has big connotations for the story, were one to subscribe to that. Again, we shall see.

I think it's needlessly complicating (without sufficient reason) a matter that was probably as straight-forward as it seems.

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I don't think they attracted attention. Someone told Hightower and Ned where to go. (Unless Pretty Pig is right)

For somebody to tell Hightower or Ned where to go they had to know where they were.

1. somebody was told

a. by Rhaegar, Whent, Dayne, or Lyanna

b. by somebody that saw where they were

1. somebody that saw them going there

2. somebody that saw them there after they arrived.

a. somebody that stumbled on them

b. somebody that was told by Rhaegar, Lyanna, Dayne, or Whent

2. somebody saw

a. somebody saw them going there

b. somebody saw them after they arrived-- stumbled on them

A finite amount of possibilities for somebody telling Ned or Hightower where they were. None of them require the secret passage of the group.

The group telling where they were headed requires that they knew where they were going. Which requires them to be headed to an abandoned tower in the princes pass. Which requires Lyanna, Whent, Dayne, or Rhaegar to have known about the tower. They either heard of the love nest in the mountains or had been there before. Hearing of it may have made finding it more difficult. A previous visit would have had to be secret as well to expect the return visit to be secret.

...stumbling through the mountains at night looking for a tower the group heard was a good love nest

...stumbling through the mountains at night looking for a tower to use as a good love nest.

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