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R+L =J v.105


Jon Weirgaryen

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Well, if you are claiming that Aerys acted perfectly reasonably with each of his Hands, I believe that you are mistaken. It is not just how Aerys reacted to the Starks, it is how he roasted Chelsted for begging him to put aside his wildfyre plot, and ultimately resigning over it.

I don't believe for a minute that you have anything even hinting at the plotting that you are outlining. I believe that many here agree with me. You chastise everyone for interpretations, then overreach on this . . . Odd, and duplicitous.

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I addressed the start of the rebellion.

I wanted to affect a certain human reality. I don’t like fantasy where everybody is either a hero or a villain, black or white. I prefer to paint with shades of grey. I think it’s more true to life. We’re all of us angels and demons in the same skin. We do good things and the next day we maybe do terrible things.--GRRM

http://www.abebooks....ge-martin.shtml

GRRM's statement does not match the rebel's portrail of the rebellion. It has the Heroic rebels against the Villian Aerys. That is a pretty big hint that we are missing something heroic from Aerys and something villainous from the rebels.

I formed a hypothesis---Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption--- not an interpretation... and not an assertion..

Hypothesis

The Tully-Stark-Arryn-Baratheon marriage pact formed as a rival to Targaryen power after the Harrenhal tournament.

--The support for pact as a rivalry to the Targaryens is based on the outcome... outcome does not prove intent,--- therefore it is a hypothesis rather than an assertion

--The pact forming after the tournament is based on absence of evidence... absence of evidence is not evidence---therefore it is a hypothesis rather than an assertion

The hypothesis does move the rebels towards plotting and scheming and Aerys towards justified. It changes an apparent black and white conflict into the grey that GRRM stated he prefers,.

The postulation that the rebellion was based on a lie.... points to evidence of Aery's behavior and how that does not match what Jon Arryn claimed Aerys demanded. It also points to the fact that without lyanna's kidnapping the houses that rebelled would have been bound to each other through marriage.

The hypothesis that Aerys did not in fact call for the heads of Ned and Robert--is not valid.

Ned had fostered in the Eyrie, and the childless Lord Arryn had become a second father to him and his fellow ward, Robert Baratheon. When the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen had called for their heads, the Lord of the Eyrie had raised his moon-and-falcon banners in revolt rather than give up those he had sworn to protect.--aGoT page 22

The passage is from the narrator rather than dialogue or thought. As such it must be taken as accurate.

Aerys did hold the heirs and call the fathers to King's Landing-- The passage does not connect the calling for the heirs heads with the executions of the prisoners-- the passages containing the executions do not reference calling for the heads-- Aerys could have been holding Jon Arryn's heir as hostage against JA. If that is the case, there is no inconsistency in Aerys's behavior (using hostages to force compliance)

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I agree.

The Tower of Joy sounds like there is ecstasy going on, and fulfilling the prophesy was a byproduct of that.

And if the Targaryens can get away with incest and polygamy, they can probably get a divorce.

To me, it's more honest a state for both women, because at least Elia would be free to follow her own heart.

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists, He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jamie Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him, He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature, but he took no joy in it, Men said he loved his harp much better than his lance," SELMY--aSoS BG pages 15-16

Just thought that quote adds nicely to your sentiment...

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MtnLion,



thanks, I really should be reading the books more often. But still, the idea that Lyanna was not yet betrothed at Harrenhal really sounds wrong to me. If that was the case, then surely Rhaegar would have had a pretty good chance to broker a match with Rickard to make Lyanna his second wife. Especially since they could have set aside Elia completely after she became effectively barren after Aegon's birth (which seems to have occurred after Harrenhal).



If Rhaegar had promised to send Elia back to Sunspear, Lyanna could have become the one and only Queen of Westeros. Would Rickard have accepted Robert's offer to marry Lyanna after Rhaegar crowned her? Would Robert even have tried to marry Lyanna after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna - it would have been pretty easy to interpret this as a sign that Lyanna had become Rhaegar's (now not so secret) lover at Harrenhal?



I don't know, but I really think that the tragic of the Lyanna-Rhaegar-story - if such a thing exists - is rooted in the fact that Lyanna was no longer free to choose her future husband at Harrenhal - and neither were the Starks, even if they wanted to. There is pretty much no chance that a Lord Stark of Winterfell prior to Robb would ever break a marriage contract to another (high) lord.


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But still, the idea that Lyanna was not yet betrothed at Harrenhal really sounds wrong to me. If that was the case, then surely Rhaegar would have had a pretty good chance to broker a match with Rickard to make Lyanna his second wife. Especially since they could have set aside Elia completely after she became effectively barren after Aegon's birth (which seems to have occurred after Harrenhal).

If Rhaegar had promised to send Elia back to Sunspear, Lyanna could have become the one and only Queen of Westeros. Would Rickard have accepted Robert's offer to marry Lyanna after Rhaegar crowned her? Would Robert even have tried to marry Lyanna after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna - it would have been pretty easy to interpret this as a sign that Lyanna had become Rhaegar's (now not so secret) lover at Harrenhal?

I don't know, but I really think that the tragic of the Lyanna-Rhaegar-story - if such a thing exists - is rooted in the fact that Lyanna was no longer free to choose her future husband at Harrenhal - and neither were the Starks, even if they wanted to. There is pretty much no chance that a Lord Stark of Winterfell prior to Robb would ever break a marriage contract to another (high) lord.

LV--I know we have been round and round a bit on this issue, but I think this course of events supports my view that Rhaegar had no intention to marry Lyanna at the time of the tourney and only considered going off with Lyanna after he found out that Elia could not have a third child. I know you have your reasons for believing that to be impractical, but I think that GRRM is not always as sensitive about time lines and we might hope that he would have been with respect to how long it might take to accomplish a certain goal (whether it is the time for Ned to travel to ToJ or the time for Rhaegar to convince Lyanna to run off and marry him).

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UL,



well, this is not just a time line thing, but also a motivational thing. Yes, perhaps Rhaegar did not mean the Crowning thing as a declaration of love (although I believe that), but I guess the other people present most likely interpreted it in this way, or rather in a broader 'Prince Rhaegar is trying to get the attention of House Stark'.



If Rickard truly had 'Southron ambitions', and if those ambitions expressed themselves in marriage contracts, then a marriage between Lyanna and the Prince of Dragonstone would be a much better match, influence-wise (Rickard could become Rhaegar's Hand, or at least gain a Stark seat on the Small Council etc.) then a match between Lyanna and the Lord of Storm's End.



Thus, if Robert's offer had reached Rickard at the same time as the Crowning story, I'm not inclined to believe that he would have just said 'Great, let's marry her to Robert!'.



More importantly, Robert himself may have interpreted the Crowning thing in the wrong fashion (i.e. he may have believed that something was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna), and then he would most likely not have asked for her hand (soiled goods and all).



Finally, I'm not sure we can assume that Lyanna returned to Winterfell after Harrenhal. If I'm right, then the conversation between Lyanna and Ned could not have taken place after Harrenhal, at Winterfell. Especially since it also seems as if Ned, too, did not go back North after Harrenhal, but accompanied Robert into the Vale, where they still are when Aerys demands their heads (my guess is they went there to spend some time while waiting for Brandon's, and eventually Robert's, wedding). The idea of league-long journey around all Westeros in winter sounds very odd - from Harrenhal back to Winterfell, then to the Vale, and from the Vale (supposedly) to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding.



Harrenhal - Eyrie - Riverrun would make much more sense.


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LV,



It's really quite simple and I think Mtn Lion has done a good job explaining it. Ned came from the Eyrie with Robert and Jon Arryn to the Tourney. There Robert met Lyanna for the first time and they formed their opinions of each other (including Lyanna hearing gossip about Robert's daughter in the Vale which she would hardly have been like to hear at Winterfell) Ned and his siblings returned to WF together where Ned presented Robert's formal suit to Lord Rickard, and the conversation between Ned and Lyanna takes place. Note that a journey to WF immediately following the tourney would take place during spring-like weather. There is nothing in the text that contradicts the notion that the Starks spent the return of winter together at WF and with the arrival of true spring Ned and Brandon departed for the Eyrie and Riverrun respectively. No travel in winter is required in this scenario, which I would stress is based purely on textual hints.



Making assumptions about Rhaegar's motivations or possible actions given one scenario or another hardly sensible given the information at hand. At least, those assumptions or opinions can hardly be used to disprove another, text based theory. I would also agree with UL as far as that there is nothing in the text to support the idea that Rhaegar was intending to marry Lyanna whilst at the Tourney with his wife, whom he went on to father a son with. I am of the belief that the crowning was a mark of honor for Lyanna's part in the tourney at the KotLT, and that the romance (while it may have its roots there) blossomed later. That however is my opinion, which is separate from textual analysis, like that which Mtn Lion is offering in his assessment of the timeline.


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Making assumptions about Rhaegar's motivations or possible actions given one scenario or another hardly sensible given the information at hand. At least, those assumptions or opinions can hardly be used to disprove another, text based theory. I would also agree with UL as far as that there is nothing in the text to support the idea that Rhaegar was intending to marry Lyanna whilst at the Tourney with his wife, whom he went on to father a son with. I am of the belief that the crowning was a mark of honor for Lyanna's part in the tourney at the KotLT, and that the romance (while it may have its roots there) blossomed later. That however is my opinion, which is separate from textual analysis, like that which Mtn Lion is offering in his assessment of the timeline.

Although you minimize your position by saying it is just your "opinion" and not based on textual analysis, I believe there are hints in the text to support the position that Rhaegar intended to be loyal to Elia--namely what you state about fathering a son with her--and I think the HotU vision is a clue that Rhaegar and Elia were not on the "outs" at the time of Aegon's birth. But obviously we basically agree on the general point. Now if I could just manage to convince LV.

By the way, Mtn Lion is female, so it would be "her assessment".

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Although you minimize your position by saying it is just your "opinion" and not based on textual analysis, I believe there are hints in the text to support the position that Rhaegar intended to be loyal to Elia--namely what you state about fathering a son with her--and I think the HotU vision is a clue that Rhaegar and Elia were not on the "outs" at the time of Aegon's birth. But obviously we basically agree on the general point. Now if I could just manage to convince LV.

By the way, Mtn Lion is female, so it would be "her assessment".

MtnLion's profile says otherwise.

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You know, sometimes I think... why hasn't Jon figured it out himself yet :P



I mean, in the books everyone goes on and on about Ned's honor, and how unlikely it was for him to commit aldultery. Then he comes back from the War of the Usurper with a baby in his arms, Lyanna died at the end of the war and Rhaegar Targaryen apparently ''raped'' her (Bran Stark's words while he is in the crypts). Nothing Catelyn does or says can convince Ned to send Jon away. Ned never calls Jon ''my son'', always ''my blood''.



Sometimes it just baffles me how Jon en Catelyn haven't deduced it themselves.



I suppose Ned is reaaaally lucky that Jon looks like a Stark, but still.


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I always thought - and still think - that Robert and Lyanna were not betrothed after Harrenhal, or met each other first on that tourney.



And again, I did not speculate all that much about Rhaegar's motivations, I thought about how Rhaegar's actions may have been interpreted by Robert, the Starks present at Harrenhal, and others.



My point about the time line has also nothing to do with the weather calculations. Just with the distances. It makes little sense to me to assume that Ned traveled from Harrenhal to Winterfell, and then to the Vale - from where he then, presumably, intended to travel to the wedding at Riverrun.



It would be much more likely if Ned and Robert's meeting at Harrenhal caused the friends to decide to accompany their foster father to the Vale, who conveniently happened to be at Harrenhal, too. That would be fun, seeing old friends again, spending some more time with Robert and Jon, especially since both friends (and Jon as well, perhaps) would - presumably - also attend the wedding in Riverrun some time later.



The other scenario reads like 'I travel because I like traveling'.



The gossip about Mya could have reached Lyanna in a number of ways. The best idea would be that gossip spreads, and that, since Rickard had kin in the Vale through his paternal aunt, more people may have traveled back and forth, not just Ned. Another possibility is that Ned traveled to the Vale in the company of friends and servants from Winterfell - at least during his later visits, when he no longer was Jon Arryn's ward -, some of which later returned, and gossiped, even if Ned himself did nothing of this sort (Benjen would be a very good suspect for that!).


Lyanna would have been clearly very interested in getting a full picture of her future lord husband.



It would be easily imaginable that Robert and Lyanna did not first meet at Harrenhal but in the Vale, when either the wards Robert and Eddard where visited by the whole Stark family - I don't know if such a visit occurred, but I'd be surprised if it did not. Another possibility could be that Rickard brought Ned down into the Vale himself, accompanied by (some of) his children - Robert could already have been there, at this time (after all, we know that Bronze Yohn also accompanied his Ser Waymar to the Wall, so this is easily imaginable, especially if Rickard also wanted to pay his kin in the Vale a visit).



The App indicates that Robert decided he wanted to marry Lyanna, suggesting that Robert only asked for Lyanna's hand after his parents died. But this does not mean that he came up with that idea only after Harrenhal.



The scenario that all the Starks returned to Winterfell first after Harrenhal also causes many troubles for the whole Lyanna-Rhaegar-thing:



Where was she when Rhaegar abducted her? Conveniently back in the South without her family for some unknown reason? If no longer in the North/at Winterfell, then where did she go? With whom did she travel to wherever she was? Brandon was apparently not with her when she was abducted (else he would have attacked Rhaegar then and there). Why did Ned not take her with him to the Vale, so that she could spend time with her new betrothed? Why did Robert not accompany Ned to Winterfell to talk to Rickard in person about his wish to marry Lyanna? How could she have begun her 'pen pal romance' with Rhaegar at Winterfell, assuming that they did not fall in love at Harrenhal?


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MtnLion's profile says otherwise.

My sincerest apologies to Mtn Lion and Lady Gwynhyfvr. I could have sworn I checked the profile and it said female, but I re-checked and you are correct. I am humbled and embarrassed. I will crawl into my hole now and perform my penance.

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You know, sometimes I think... why hasn't Jon figured it out himself yet :P

I mean, in the books everyone goes on and on about Ned's honor, and how unlikely it was for him to commit aldultery. Then he comes back from the War of the Usurper with a baby in his arms, Lyanna died at the end of the war and Rhaegar Targaryen apparently ''raped'' her (Bran Stark's words while he is in the crypts). Nothing Catelyn does or says can convince Ned to send Jon away. Ned never calls Jon ''my son'', always ''my blood''.

Sometimes it just baffles me how Jon en Catelyn haven't deduced it themselves.

I suppose Ned is reaaaally lucky that Jon looks like a Stark, but still.

It makes sense to me that Jon hasn't figured it out. That was before his time, he doesn't know any of it except by history. He simply thinks his father is so embarrassed by what he's done that he refuses to talk about it. He feels guilty that he has "soiled" his father's good name. But his entire identity is wrapped up in Ned...that's all he knows about himself, so the idea never occurs to him that he might not be Ned's son.

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It makes sense to me that Jon hasn't figured it out. That was before his time, he doesn't know any of it except by history. He simply thinks his father is so embarrassed by what he's done that he refuses to talk about it. He feels guilty that he has "soiled" his father's good name. But his entire identity is wrapped up in Ned...that's all he knows about himself, so the idea never occurs to him that he might not be Ned's son.

I think it is also because Ned is so unlikely to have committed adultery that no one questions it. In other words, if a man who prides himself with his honor admits to such a transgression, he must be telling the truth. In addition, it happened at the very beginning of his marriage before he really even knew Cat, so that also adds to the credibility. Yes, if Jon had silver hair and purple eyes, the Ashara (or other Dornish mother) cover story might not have prevented people from figuring it out--who knows? And maybe under those circumstances, Ned would have had to rely on some back-up plan and send Jon to Essos somehow, who knows? But of course, this is fiction, and GRRM was careful to make sure that Jon looked like a Stark (even more like a Stark than most of the other Stark children). And of course, the other reason no one, including Jon or Cat, figured it out is because GRRM did not want anyone to figure it out.

But from the point of view of Jon, specifically, if he is told from as early as he can remember that he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, why would he ever even consider questioning it? He would have no reason to think about Rhaegar or Lyanna. From the point of view of Cat, she would not consider that Ned lied to her to protect Lyanna. Why would Ned do that? We know why, but it would never occur to Cat that Ned would lie to her for 14 years about such an issue. It would not occur to Cat that Ned would consider giving the knowledge to Cat to be a danger to Cat and Jon. Why would Cat ever think in those terms? So I think GRRM has done a good job of writing a situation in which it is quite plausible that neither Jon nor Cat would have figured out the truth.

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Great, now I have "Weekend at the Roxbury" and "What is Love" going through my head.

...baby don't hurt me...don't hurt me...no more...

I think it is also because Ned is so unlikely to have committed adultery that no one questions it. In other words, if a man who prides himself with his honor admits to such a transgression, he must be telling the truth. In addition, it happened at the very beginning of his marriage before he really even knew Cat, so that also adds to the credibility. Yes, if Jon had silver hair and purple eyes, the Ashara (or other Dornish mother) cover story might not have prevented people from figuring it out--who knows? And maybe under those circumstances, Ned would have had to rely on some back-up plan and send Jon to Essos somehow, who knows? But of course, this is fiction, and GRRM was careful to make sure that Jon looked like a Stark (even more like a Stark than most of the other Stark children). And of course, the other reason no one, including Jon or Cat, figured it out is because GRRM did not want anyone to figure it out.

Agreed. Same answer to "why has no one in Westeros figured it out or at least seriously questioned it"

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...baby don't hurt me...don't hurt me...no more...

Agreed. Same answer to "why has no one in Westeros figured it out or at least seriously questioned it"

Surely someone must have suspected it?I mean it's not hard 3 kingsguard at that Tower,Lyanna is there and has died by something Ned hasn't described to anyone,Ned returns with a bastard but again The Starks looks must have helped Jon and erased every possible suspicion.

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Surely someone must have suspected it?I mean it's not hard 3 kingsguard at that Tower,Lyanna is there and has died by something Ned hasn't described to anyone,Ned returns with a bastard but again The Starks looks must have helped Jon and erased every possible suspicion.

If there are people in Westeros who question Ned Stark coming home with a baby, then they're keeping pretty silent. I don't know how well known the story of the TOJ is in the 7K. And even if it is known, they might be under the impression that the 3KG were guarding Lyanna but no mention of a baby.

It goes back to something Ygrain, I think, once mentioned which is that Ned must have sent the baby to WF without him because when Ned goes to KL, no one in the city--including his army and Robert--mentions a baby.

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