R+L =J v.105

[UnmaskedLurker]

I won't speak for sj4iy, but in regards to the analysis you quoted, the division of Targ vs Stark exist for the readers in that moment, not Jon. He's not consciously trying to decide between Stark and Targaryen, but it is being read as a symbolic decision by the readers. It might foreshadow Jon consciously making a decision between Stark and Targaryen later down the line, though I hold that he will not choose one or other but embrace both aspects.

Isn't the bolded part really the entire point of Jon being A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified (and you and I tend to harp on)? Not only do I obviously agree that Jon ultimately will embrace both aspects (as I suspect you knew I would), but it will ONLY be through Jon's embrace of both aspects of his nature will be he able to prevail over the major challenges set up for the endgame. GRRM is, in part, telling a tale about the balance between opposing forces being essential for proper balance in the universe. Jon--being the embodiment of these opposing forces--must embrace these conflicting aspects in order to bring balance back to everything else. He may try to reject his Targ side (after initially finding out about it), but ultimately, he will need to come to terms with both sides of his family to accomplish his goals.

[sj4iy]

Isn't the bolded part really the entire point of Jon being A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified (and you and I tend to harp on)? Not only do I obviously agree that Jon ultimately will embrace both aspects (as I suspect you knew I would), but it will ONLY be through Jon's embrace of both aspects of his nature will be he able to prevail over the major challenges set up for the endgame. GRRM is, in part, telling a tale about the balance between opposing forces being essential for proper balance in the universe. Jon--being the embodiment of these opposing forces--must embrace these conflicting aspects in order to bring balance back to everything else. He may try to reject his Targ side (after initially finding out about it), but ultimately, he will need to come to terms with both sides of his family to accomplish his goals.

To me, that quote has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jon choosing "Stark" vs "Targaryan". He was choosing "duty" vs "desire". The desire to go and see the world vs the duty of staying and finishing what he started. I'm sure we will see him struggle between his Stark and Targaryan sides in the future...but we most definitely haven't see it as of yet.

[stateofdissipation]

1. Catelyn learned of Lysa's marriage shortly before they took place. She did not learn of Lysa's marriage before she learned of her own. Cat was betrothed to Ned first, Jon and Lysa came after.

2. And if you quote the entire passage, you'll read that Lysa's blood had come shortly after. I don't know if you are male of female, but especially when girls are still young (and Lysa was 16 years old), and don't have medication (birth control pill) to regulate their period, periods can be irregular. In fact, they can always be regular, but then randomly, once in a while, be irregular. Lysa would want to be pregnant.. Her husband is off to war, and a child is what is expected of you. That her period came soon after, and her depression (I think we can call it depression) kicked in shortly thereafter, shows that her expectations were crushed.

It's funny that you call Catelyn an idiot who misnterprets everything, and next try to use a quote of hers to try and prove a point...

3. Lysa was a rather shy girl, so Hoster could reasonably have thought that she wouldn't do such a thing. After all, he was raising proper young ladies, and those are being taught not to sleep around, and remain a virgin until the wedding night. That doesn't mean that they'll actually do so, but at least, there was no reason for Hoster to suspect anything like this.

Think about all the stuff that happened between the duel, and Lysa's marriage... LF was taken care of for a fortnight (he was seriously injured, and thus, the sex most likely happened in the end of that fortnight), then he was send away. A while after that (though not a specified while), Brandon is on his way back to Riverrun, but rides on to KL instead, where he is imprisoned. After he is imprisoned, Rickard is summoned. Two trips to KL takes a couple of weeks ;) Then, the "trials" happen, and Aerys sends his raven. Jon Arryn calls his banner, and fights with Robert in Gulltown. Robert returns to Storm's End after the fighting in Gulltown is done, and calls his own banners, and goes to fight at Summerhal. He then returns to SE, and next goes to fight at Ashford, after which he flees to the Riverlands, where he ends up at the Stony Sept, where the Battle of the Bells occurs. After all that, the marriages take place.

It's safe to say that months passed. If Lysa had still been pregnant, everyone at Riverrun would have been able to see it.

Also, Catelyn's description (which you quoted), suggests that Lysa became a little depressed (totally normal, for someone who believed so hard that she was pregnant, only to turn out that she wasn't..), but totally not that she had gotten sick. And as we know, Lysa had gotten very sick from the tea that Hoster had given her.

4. See above, months passed.

5. Had it been such a late-term abortion, than Lysa's pregnancy would not have been a secret for anyone at Riverrun... and thus also Catelyn. And as Catelyn had no idea, Lysa thus wasn't showing yet.. You begin to show around the 2nd or 3rd month.. Let it be clear from all the travelling that occured that more than 3 months passed between LF being send away, and Lysa getting married.

1, Slightly different ways of saying the same thing...

2. And if you quote the entire passage, you'll read that Lysa's blood had come shortly after. I don't know if you are male of female, but especially when girls are still young (and Lysa was 16 years old), and don't have medication (birth control pill) to regulate their period, periods can be irregular. In fact, they can always be regular, but then randomly, once in a while, be irregular. Lysa would want to be pregnant.. Her husband is off to war, and a child is what is expected of you. That her period came soon after, and her depression (I think we can call it depression) kicked in shortly thereafter, shows that her expectations were crushed.

Afterward, when their moon blood at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily about the sons she was sure they carried.--aSoS SS page 38

"Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh.they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it,"

She was so happy.

But Lysa's blood had come not long after and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had been a little late, but if she had been with child... --aSoS SS page 39

I added the remainder of the passage...

The earlier passage included what you asserted---Lysa had been a little late. Cat had figured out that Hoster had Lysa's child aborted because of his guilty ramblings on his deathbed. That made her question what she had always believed--that Lysa had been late--after her marriage to Jon Arryn.

It's funny that you call Catelyn an idiot who misnterprets everything, and next try to use a quote of hers to try and prove a point...

Catelyn is an idiot that misinterprets everything. She never figured out that her sister had been pregnant when she was married. She was handed that Lysa had the abortion by Hoster. She managed to figure out when it happened. She never put that Hoster basically called the abortion a bastard together with Lysa was married to Jon when she thought the abortion happened. She never figured out who the father was.

Cat's observations are more or less accurate her conclusions and deductions on the other hand... yikes.

The quotes used were observations rather than conclusions.

3. Lysa was a rather shy girl, so Hoster could reasonably have thought that she wouldn't do such a thing. After all, he was raising proper young ladies, and those are being taught not to sleep around, and remain a virgin until the wedding night. That doesn't mean that they'll actually do so, but at least, there was no reason for Hoster to suspect anything like this.

Hoster raised two alliances with great houses. His daughters were his greatest asset. Their marriages exponentially increased the power and influence of the Tullys. To risk that on what could possibly happen Lysa is a shy girl... hardly seems reasonable. Hoster did not have Lysa's child aborted immediately. Even if he had no reason to suspect, he had every reason to react. He did not.

Think about all the stuff that happened between the duel, and Lysa's marriage... LF was taken care of for a fortnight (he was seriously injured, and thus, the sex most likely happened in the end of that fortnight), then he was send away. A while after that (though not a specified while), Brandon is on his way back to Riverrun, but rides on to KL instead, where he is imprisoned. After he is imprisoned, Rickard is summoned. Two trips to KL takes a couple of weeks ;) Then, the "trials" happen, and Aerys sends his raven. Jon Arryn calls his banner, and fights with Robert in Gulltown. Robert returns to Storm's End after the fighting in Gulltown is done, and calls his own banners, and goes to fight at Summerhal. He then returns to SE, and next goes to fight at Ashford, after which he flees to the Riverlands, where he ends up at the Stony Sept, where the Battle of the Bells occurs. After all that, the marriages take place.

Correct... Like I said, a late term abortion.

Also, Catelyn's description (which you quoted), suggests that Lysa became a little depressed (totally normal, for someone who believed so hard that she was pregnant, only to turn out that she wasn't..), but totally not that she had gotten sick. And as we know, Lysa had gotten very sick from the tea that Hoster had given her.

No sooner than she had placed the babe (Robb) in her sister'sarms than Lysa's face dissolved into tears. Hurriedly she had thrust the baby back at Catelyn and fled. If she had been with child before that might explain her father's words and much else besides...--aSoS SS page 39

Now you would seem to have a problem using Lysa's sickness and Cat's awareness of it. By the same reasoning had Lysa been very sick sometime before the wedding Cat should have known about it. The abortion and the sickness still need to be covered. Just earlier than the weddings. Once that is accomplished you will need to explain how Cat notices Lysa's reaction to a false pregnancy while Lysa is able to conceal an actual pregnancy and abortion completely concealed.---Yes the Cat is a moron works---

Jon Arryn had taken two wives that failed to produce an heir. He was of an age with Hoster Tully. He hardly had time to risk a third childless marriage. A pregnant Lysa showed her to be fertile and a suitable bride to Jon Arryn.

The Arryns were proud and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might have wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard of him to love a woman who had come to his bed soiled and unwilling... aSoS SS page 39

Cat the breeding mill got the breeding mill part right...

---largely conjecture.--

Ability trumps formality. Jon had two wives come willingly and unsoiled to his bed. Both had died childless. He needed an heir rather than lusted for his third virgin bride to come lovingly to his bed.

Catelyn's marriage to Ned bound the Tullys to the rebellion. A Tully bannerman had been taken prisoner with Brandon at King's Landing. Hoster needed allies more than Jon Arryn. JA was in the position to dictate his terms for the marriage.... a young bride known to be fertile.

5. Had it been such a late-term abortion, than Lysa's pregnancy would not have been a secret for anyone at Riverrun... and thus also Catelyn. And as Catelyn had no idea, Lysa thus wasn't showing yet.. You begin to show around the 2nd or 3rd month.. Let it be clear from all the travelling that occured that more than 3 months passed between LF being send away, and Lysa getting married.

Now sex while nursing littlefinger back to health... completely secret... pregnancy for 3 or 4 months impossible to keep secret.

Cat--sack of hair--did not know Lysa had sex with Littlefinger, got pregnant, had an abortion for more than 15 years. What Cat does not have an idea about is as vast as the ocean.

2-3 or 3 to 4 months makes very little difference...

The time that passed between Littlefinger being sent away and the marriages hinges on the time between the battle of the bells and the sack... Many ways to calculate possible passage of time by distances and rates... however these can yield wildly different times...

Take those travel estimates and see how they work out for telling time during the WotFK... not very

[Kingmonkey]

How about a chair made from pieces of conquered lords/kings? That would be awesome.

The Bone Throne?

[King Tyrion XX]

To me, that quote has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jon choosing "Stark" vs "Targaryan". He was choosing "duty" vs "desire". The desire to go and see the world vs the duty of staying and finishing what he started. I'm sure we will see him struggle between his Stark and Targaryan sides in the future...but we most definitely haven't see it as of yet.

I think it was literally duty vs desire and symbolically Targ vs Stark. Though as of yet it's still possible he is Stark-Rayder or Stark-Stark or Stark-Dayne/Wylla. He may not even have a Targ anything to consider.

[King Tyrion XX]

The Bone Throne?

That sounds even better.

[sj4iy]

I think it was literally duty vs desire and symbolically Targ vs Stark. Though as of yet it's still possible he is Stark-Rayder or Stark-Stark or Stark-Dayne/Wylla. He may not even have a Targ anything to consider.

I didn't see anything symbolic about it. I'm not seeing how Stark vs Targ is brought into this at all, because his choices weren't "Winter" and "Fire and Blood". This is Jon as a young kid deciding the rest of his life. It makes sense in that context. But not in the context you are assigning to it.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

The Bone Throne?

My butt hurts from sitting here throne.

Back on subject:

If Jon is part Targ and part Stark, we need know he is one. Ned should have told the truth to Catelyn, so she would have not gone nuts for believing that her husband slept with another woman, producing a bastard child.

[BearQueen87]

My butt hurts from sitting here throne.

Back on subject:

If Jon is part Targ and part Stark, we need know he is one. Ned should have told the truth to Catelyn, so she would have not gone nuts for believing that her husband slept with another woman, producing a bastard child.

Well, first, Cat doesn't go nuts. She questions it and once Ned tells her to stop, she never questions it again. She doesn't mistreat Jon, they just avoid each other. Her remark to Jon is a one-off after Bran was thrown and Cat is emotionally devastated and lashes out at Jon...and later Maester Luwin. So it's not just Jon who is subject to her ire.

Second, I really and truly believe that Ned did the best he could when it came to Cat and Jon. For the safety of both parties, he couldn't tell Cat. There was always a risk.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Snp

Basically, what you are saying, is that Catelyn is dumb. She misinterprets everything. Yet, from Hosters vague mumbling, she cannot possibly be wrong in wondering if Lysa had been pregnant..?

Catelyn still did not suspect an abortion, Catelyn simply suspects that Lysa had been pregnant, that something went wrong, and that Hoster blamed himself (possibly her reasoning here is because he had forced Lysa to marry a 60+ year old guy).

According to you, Lysa remained pregnant for months until after her wedding to Jon Arryn. Realise how illogical that is:

- Lysa would have been multiple months into the pregnancy. That would start showing, in both behavior and appearance. No one noticed, and thus, the pregnancy was terminated quickly. Not until after her wedding

- Why would Jon Arryn marry a girl who is still pregnant with another mans child? Because that is what you are stating above. That the abortion took place weeks after Lysa's wedding ceremony.

- No one noticed that the girl they had in front of them naked (bedding ritual) had a swollen belly and swollen breasts?

Both textual, and logical, Lysa told Hoster as soon as she knew (which would have been after LF had left for the Fingers), as her motivation was to get LF back. Hoster would have acted immediately.. You can lie and say that your daughter is still a virgin if no one noticed she was ever pregnant.. You can't claim such a thing after half your castle has seen her with a swollen belly, swollen breasts, morning nausea every day, etc. The lie would come out that way, so waiting was not an option.

That Hoster terminated Lysa's pregnancy is secrecy is supported by the fact that his guilt seems to be about the tansy. Did he mix the potion himself and use too much, causing Lysa to "nearly die"? Very possible. And because of the reaction that Lysa had on the potion, Hoster might even believe that he was responsible for her future problems in that area.

Hoster would only have needed to tell Jon Arryn that Lysa was proven to have been fertile by admitting that she had been pregnant before. Telling Arryn that would have been a huge risk, as Arryn could refuse, and later on spread the word. There would be no need to keep Lysa pregnant, especially not since she became pregnant a while before the war began, and thus before Jon Arryn even came into the picture.

As we've gone off topic enough with this, I suggest we leave it here. Lysa's marriage has got nothing to do with R+L=J, and than is the topic of this thread.

[Patriam1066]

Held the wall against thousands of wildliings,negotiated with Stannis succesfully,dealt effectively with The Karstarks and arranged the Alys-Sigorn wedding,his advices not only provided Stannis reinforcements but saved him multiple times,elected LC at the of 16.I guess i could call him talented,capable and smart for his age.Last but not least,we dont know if Mance wrote the letter,dont make assumptions.

Talented for his age, definitely. Daenerys is arguably talented for her age.

As far as negotiated with the wildlings...Mance is playing both Stannis and Jon. Mance deserted the Watch to become a king, he is not going to serve anyone but his own interests. This is the problem... Too few recognize Jon having fatal deficiencies like the rest of the Starks. Just like Robb and Ned, he underestimates his opponent's ability and overestimates their honor.

As for assumptions, we're assuming that Jon is the prince that was promised, Azor Ahai, etc. There is actual evidence that Mance wrote the letter. The only evidence we see for Jon is that he let his pride get him killed. Regardless of who wrote that letter, it was designed to manipulate: it worked perfectly, he threw his life away for some words written on a page that any halfwit would recognize as a forgery.

Jon may turn out to exhibit greatness, but up to this point, he's just another Stark undone by his own inability.

[Patriam1066]

What makes you sure that Mance is the one who sent that letter?

Also, not smart, talented, capable? I thought his entire arc in ADWD was all about how smart, talented and capable he is.

Smart, talented, capable leaders don't desert their men after conflict, knowing the consequences of said desertion, and expect to live.

Also, the way the letter is worded. It mentions one name, Mance Rayder. Funny... Why would any northerner mention only that name? Regardless of who wrote it, like I said, Jon got manipulated into making a stupid decision. Someone wanted him to leave the Wall to cause chaos at the least...

Jon didn't disappoint. Stark to the end.

[Patriam1066]

Mance? Lol. Mance wouldn't want Jon killed if he's getting the Free Folk to the right side of the Wall, something he himself couldn't even accomplish.

Who's the failure now?

Mance resents his new position as Melisandre and Stannis' plaything. In addition, he is a king who has aspirations larger than simply moving his people south of the Wall. I'm not 100% certain that he wrote the letter, but he's definitely the likeliest candidate at this point. Please tell me you don't think it's Ramsay.

Jon is a failure relative to the expectation that he's the Messiah... IE Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised. For a normal high born child, he's actually quite gifted. Most everyone is missing my point. The prophesied savior should be someone worth writing a prophecy for... Worth calling a savior.

Jon just has too much stark in him. Whether he lived or died and is resurrected (he's obviously not out of ASOIAF), I see him likely continuing his path of nobility and righteousness, which unfortunately leaves him open to manipulation by everyone else in Westeros. The Stark character traits just aren't fit for the insidious nature of The realm's politics.

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Very early into this series I decided that Jon snow was Rhaegar and Lyanna's love child. Ned was clearly claiming him as his own to protect him from all those who would harm him if his true parentage came to light too early. Jon is still of Stark blood through Lyanna therefore still entitled to a dire wolf along with the other Stark children, in this time of enhanced magic and comming of winter. I thought the fact that Ghost is white with red eyes solidified the idea in my mind that he is Rhaegar's son, as Targaryen's are famously white haired and "blood of dragons" which to me explains the red eyes as they are the colour of blood and fire. Being able to communicate with Ghost subconsciously as he does will also prepare him well for the comming of dragons and he should be able to tame his dragon with ease through his mental connection. A passage I found curious and have not seen others mention is in ASOS part, it is after he has been hit with an arrow in the leg by (Ygritte?) after leaving the wildlings to warn Castle Black of the comming invasion. He thinks to himself "How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer. Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man's horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow? He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes." I think this passage foreshadows his ability to ride a dragon without saddle or bridle in battle. And why did he search for the ice dragon in the sky and feel like the stars were staring down at him? He does not feel at home at Castle Black, but feels it is his duty to go back. Now that his NW brothers have essentially tried to kill him, he should be consider his watch to have ended and be free of obligation however I feel he will still feel obligated to be the sword that guards the realms of men, even if it is not as a man of the Night's Watch. I am interested in finding out if the "original Ice" was one of the crystal longswords wielded by the Others and whether it is still down in the lower levels of Winterfell's crypts. There has been much significance layed out in the books of Azzor Ahai's Firesword, and the fact that Dragonglass can kill Others. What if the "last hero" were to fight the Others with one of their own blades rather than a Firesword? old Nan's story of the Others as told to Bran in AGOT mentions that the "last hero" of the last time the Others came, and dire wolves grew hungry. This tale mentions the last hero speaking the help of the COTF, unfortunately the end of the story is cut off. I hope GRRM answers so many of my questions as every thread and thought brings more to my mind...

[sj4iy]

Smart, talented, capable leaders don't desert their men after conflict, knowing the consequences of said desertion, and expect to live.

When did he "desert" after a conflict? When did he "desert" at all? What was the "conflict"? Is Jon supposed to stand there and let CB be attacked from a large army from the South? Because that would get everyone killed, and Jon knows it. Also, do you know what his plan was? It surely wasn't "take a couple hundred men and attack Winterfell"...because that makes absolutely no sense. We don't know what his actual plan was, remember? Jon made these plans with Tormund and the reader wasn't privy to it.

Also, the way the letter is worded. It mentions one name, Mance Rayder. Funny... Why would any northerner mention only that name? Regardless of who wrote it, like I said, Jon got manipulated into making a stupid decision. Someone wanted him to leave the Wall to cause chaos at the least...

Jon didn't disappoint. Stark to the end.

Yeah, that "someone" was the author. And I don't see any reason that Mance Rayder would want to cause chaos at the Wall when he thinks they have his infant son. Sounds like a stupid plan to me unless he wants to get his child killed. Unless you have proof that Jon KNEW that Ramsay didn't write that letter, your claims mean nothing. They are the equivalent of calling someone an idiot for believing the person shouting "FIRE!" and trying to find a water hose. If Ramsay's claims are true, the worst thing Jon could do is sit back and let Ramsay attack CB, because it would be a slaughter. Jon can't defend it from the South.

[stateofdissipation]

Basically, what you are saying, is that Catelyn is dumb. She misinterprets everything. Yet, from Hosters vague mumbling, she cannot possibly be wrong in wondering if Lysa had been pregnant..?

Catelyn still did not suspect an abortion, Catelyn simply suspects that Lysa had been pregnant, that something went wrong, and that Hoster blamed himself (possibly her reasoning here is because he had forced Lysa to marry a 60+ year old guy).

According to you, Lysa remained pregnant for months until after her wedding to Jon Arryn. Realise how illogical that is:

- Lysa would have been multiple months into the pregnancy. That would start showing, in both behavior and appearance. No one noticed, and thus, the pregnancy was terminated quickly. Not until after her wedding

- Why would Jon Arryn marry a girl who is still pregnant with another mans child? Because that is what you are stating above. That the abortion took place weeks after Lysa's wedding ceremony.

- No one noticed that the girl they had in front of them naked (bedding ritual) had a swollen belly and swollen breasts?

Both textual, and logical, Lysa told Hoster as soon as she knew (which would have been after LF had left for the Fingers), as her motivation was to get LF back. Hoster would have acted immediately.. You can lie and say that your daughter is still a virgin if no one noticed she was ever pregnant.. You can't claim such a thing after half your castle has seen her with a swollen belly, swollen breasts, morning nausea every day, etc. The lie would come out that way, so waiting was not an option.

That Hoster terminated Lysa's pregnancy is secrecy is supported by the fact that his guilt seems to be about the tansy. Did he mix the potion himself and use too much, causing Lysa to "nearly die"? Very possible. And because of the reaction that Lysa had on the potion, Hoster might even believe that he was responsible for her future problems in that area.

Hoster would only have needed to tell Jon Arryn that Lysa was proven to have been fertile by admitting that she had been pregnant before. Telling Arryn that would have been a huge risk, as Arryn could refuse, and later on spread the word. There would be no need to keep Lysa pregnant, especially not since she became pregnant a while before the war began, and thus before Jon Arryn even came into the picture.

As we've gone off topic enough with this, I suggest we leave it here. Lysa's marriage has got nothing to do with R+L=J, and than is the topic of this thread.

Catelyn is stupid if I claim it or not... Her judgments are questionable at best and not very quick. -- that is neither here nor there-- her judgments really do not play into things.

Just facts pre abduction--

Hoster Tully had attempted to secure a Redwyne-Tully marriage pact with the blackfish

Hoster Tully had attempted to secure a Tully-Lannister marriage pact with Lysa and Jamie (with Jamie in the KG since Harrenhal no longer an option)

Hoster Tully had secured a Stark-Tully marriage pact

--Jon Arryn had two wives that failed to produce an heir.

Hoster's attempts at a Lannister alliance show he considered Lysa an asset. Lysa showed herself to be fertile at a time when Jon Arryn required a young bride shown to be fertile.

Just the facts after Lyanna was abducted

The Tullys were tied to the rebellion with the Stark marriage. Brandon's companions to King's Landing included the Tully bannerman Mallister

Lysa revealed she was pregnant in hopes of marrying Littlefinger

Jon Arryn married Lysa.

Hoster had Lysa abort the child--the timing is not given aside from Cat who believes it was after the wedding.

According to Cat--not me-- Lysa remained pregnant until after she was married.

--without developing a scenario without text to back it, it is all we have.

Both textual, and logical, Lysa told Hoster as soon as she knew (which would have been after LF had left for the Fingers), as her motivation was to get LF back. Hoster would have acted immediately.. You can lie and say that your daughter is still a virgin if no one noticed she was ever pregnant.. You can't claim such a thing after half your castle has seen her with a swollen belly, swollen breasts, morning nausea every day, etc. The lie would come out that way, so waiting was not an option.

Saying something is textual does not make it so.... the timing of her revelation is not given.

Your assumption that Hoster would have acted immediately pre-supposes that he was not aware that Lysa was pregnant with Littlefinger's child. This presupposes that Hoster was unaware of what his daughter had done.

According to Catelyn, Jon took Lysa to his bed soiled and unwilling to bind Tully swords to the rebellion.

Hypothesis---Hoster allowed his daughter to become pregnant to show Jon Arryn that she was fertile and bind Jon Arryn to the Tullys.

That Hoster terminated Lysa's pregnancy is secrecy is supported by the fact that his guilt seems to be about the tansy. Did he mix the potion himself and use too much, causing Lysa to "nearly die"? Very possible. And because of the reaction that Lysa had on the potion, Hoster might even believe that he was responsible for her future problems in that area.

The support for a later term abortion is the multiple mentions of blood and mentions of the sex of the fetus. Neither Jon Arryn nor Hoster Tully would want the details of the marriage pact to become public knowledge. The secrecy of the abortion would have been important either way.

Hoster would only have needed to tell Jon Arryn that Lysa was proven to have been fertile by admitting that she had been pregnant before. Telling Arryn that would have been a huge risk, as Arryn could refuse, and later on spread the word. There would be no need to keep Lysa pregnant, especially not since she became pregnant a while before the war began, and thus before Jon Arryn even came into the picture.

Hoster was in a buyer's market... He was in the business of marrying for the advantage of house Tully. When Lysa showed herself to be fertile, Jon Arryn had heirs and showed no burning desire to marry.

If Cat was right and Lysa had the abortion after she was married. Jon Arryn spent his honeymoon with an obviously pregnant Lysa. The only reason to leave Lysa pregnant would be to show Jon she was fertile. --That puts Jon Arryn was in the picture before the abduction.

If Catelyn was right, the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance was in motion before Lyanna was abducted. Without intervention by the Targaryens they would have been facing the same power bloc that defeated them.

Cat's take on her sister's abortion changes Lyanna's kidnapping. Rhaegar and Lyanna may well have been in love or whatever we can draw from "The dragon prince played a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle." If Cat was right Lyanna's marriage to Robert posed a real threat to the Targaryens.

Now we have a choice between the wolf maid's sniffle and the rebel alliance that existed before the cause for rebellion.---That is very much on topic.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

snp

Cat does not believe that Lysa had an abortion after her marriage.. Cat thinks that something might have happened, that Lysa might have been pregnant. And that Lysa had a miscarriage. Never once does Catelyn even suggest an abortion.

Stop making stuff up.

[BearQueen87]

Welcome to the Forums!

Smart, talented, capable leaders don't desert their men after conflict, knowing the consequences of said desertion, and expect to live.

Also, the way the letter is worded. It mentions one name, Mance Rayder. Funny... Why would any northerner mention only that name? Regardless of who wrote it, like I said, Jon got manipulated into making a stupid decision. Someone wanted him to leave the Wall to cause chaos at the least...

Jon didn't disappoint. Stark to the end.

Why would Mance want chaos at the Wall? Jon is doing what no other brother of the NW would do--helping the Wildings cross over and out of harm's way, if only temporarily.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

This is the R + L = J thread. /jon=aa /pinkletter /melsiandre /stannis

[stateofdissipation]

Cat does not believe that Lysa had an abortion after her marriage.. Cat thinks that something might have happened, that Lysa might have been pregnant. And that Lysa had a miscarriage. Never once does Catelyn even suggest an abortion.

Stop making stuff up.

..

According to Cat..

No sooner than she had placed the babe (Robb) in her sister's arms than Lysa's face dissolved into tears. Hurriedly she had thrust the baby back at Catelyn and fled. If she had been with child before that might explain her father's words and much else besides...--aSoS SS page 39

Her father's words

"Forgive me," he (Hoster) said so softly she could scarcely hear the words. "Tansy... blood... the blood... gods be kind."--aSoS SS page 38

she woke with her father's words echoing in her ears, Sweet babies, and trueborn--aSoS SS page 38

some else besides

The Arryns were proud and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might have wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard of him to love a woman who had come to his bed soiled and unwilling... aSoS SS page 39

--did not make up the Lysa going to Jon Arryn's bed soiled and unwilling.

Lysa had miscarried five times twice in the Eryie, thrice in King's Landing... but never at Riverrun, where Lord Hoster would have been there to comfort her. Never, unless... she was with child the first time...--aSoS SS page 38

The first time...

She and her sister had been married on the same dayand left in their father's care when their new husbands had ridden off to join the war. Afterward, when their moon blood at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily about the sons she was sure they carried. "Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh.they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it,"

She was so happy.

But Lysa's blood had come not long after and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had been a little late, but if she had been with child... --aSoS SS page 38-39

--did not make up Lysa being pregnant or when.

Father, who is this woman and what did you do to her that needs so much forgiveness?---Catelyn aSoS SS page 38

--did not make up the pregnancy went away

--did not make up Hoster's part in that.

Catelyn did not say Lysa had an abortion... Bran did not say Jamie and Cersei were having sex in the tower... according to Catelyn Lysa had an abortion... according to Bran Jamie and Cersei had sex in the tower

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