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R+L =J v.105


Jon Weirgaryen

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If one were to also give thought to the idea that Lyanna is in fact the pregnant girl in the Fisherman's Daughter story, and Ned helped her escape to Dorne via The Bite/White Harbor while en route to WF to call his banners, it also goes a long way toward explaining Ned's torment and guilt over the situation - if he aided Lyanna due to her newfound relationship with Rhaegar that arose from R's political machinations AGAINST the Southron Alliance in the game of thrones, the honorable Ned Stark essentially betrayed his house, his allies, and their cause....all for the love of his sister.

I generally steer towards the verifiable and concrete rather than the possible or impossible to eliminate.

Lord Godric Borrell recounts to Davos Seaworth about a fisherman and his daughter who brought Ned Stark in secret across the Bite to the North at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. The fisherman died in a storm that almost short-ended their journey, but his daughter continued and successfully saw Ned to the Sisters before the boat went down. If Lord Borrell is to be believed, Ned left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly, which she named Jon Snow after Lord Jon Arryn.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories#The_Fisherman.27s_Daughter

The pregnant girl from the fisherman's daughter is the fisherman's daughter. For her baby to be Jon, Jon would have to be older than Robb by at least the travel time from the bite to winterfell and from winterfell to riverrun... it also places Jon's birth outside the window of 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... that would make it a year before Dany.

Ned aiding Lyanna and Rhaegar in their plot against Ned's alliance.... is more of a source of confusion and frustration than guilt and torment.

still confusing and self-defeating..

Ned knowing Jon Arryn invented Aerys's demands for his and Robert's heads... Ned knowing that there was really a plot against the Targaryens and the rebellion was not as simple and pristine as it was presented... meant Ned was living a lie for 14 years.

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I generally steer towards the verifiable and concrete rather than the possible or impossible to eliminate.

The pregnant girl from the fisherman's daughter is the fisherman's daughter. For her baby to be Jon, Jon would have to be older than Robb by at least the travel time from the bite to winterfell and from winterfell to riverrun... it also places Jon's birth outside the window of 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... that would make it a year before Dany.

Ned aiding Lyanna and Rhaegar in their plot against Ned's alliance.... is more of a source of confusion and frustration than guilt and torment.

still confusing and self-defeating..

Ned knowing Jon Arryn invented Aerys's demands for his and Robert's heads... Ned knowing that there was really a plot against the Targaryens and the rebellion was not as simple and pristine as it was presented... meant Ned was living a lie for 14 years.

How so?

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it also places Jon's birth outside the window of 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... that would make it a year before Dany.




How so?




All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.


http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/



Ned was travelling north at the beginning of the war which raged almost a year.. a pregnant woman on a boat would give birth nine months later... at most. If the woman was known to be pregnant 8 months. That the woman was pregnant on the boat was part of the original post--- Lyanna is in fact the pregnant girl



Dany was born nine months after pregnant Rhaella fled King's Landing... almost a year after the start of the war..



Almost a year plus at least a month... a year...

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I find the end of your post speculative and unrelated to the thread . . .

The speculation that Ned's guilt and lies are tied to Lyanna and Ned's promise are exactly that...speculation.

Ned's lies and promise remain unknown.

Both are used to support RLJ

I stated an alternative explanation for Ned's guilt and lies. It has an equal basis for tying Ned's guilt and lies to Lyanna... none.

If Ned's promise to Lyanna and the lies he lived for 14 years are not part of RLJ... then it is not related to the thread.

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How so?

Jon must be younger than Robb. We do see Robb celebrating his nameday before Jon's, as I recall in GoT. Catelyn and Ned both say that Jon is younger. Robb was conceived after the Battle of the Bells, when Ned and Jon Arryn married the Tully girls.

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The speculation that Ned's guilt and lies are tied to Lyanna and Ned's promise are exactly that...speculation.

Ned's lies and promise remain unknown.

Both are used to support RLJ

I stated an alternative explanation for Ned's guilt and lies. It has an equal basis for tying Ned's guilt and lies to Lyanna... none.

If Ned's promise to Lyanna and the lies he lived for 14 years are not part of RLJ... then it is not related to the thread.

We do know that Ned made promises to Lyanna. Fourteen years since the end of the rebellion, but fifteen years since the beginning, and sixteen since Harrenhal. Hmmm ... As I said, unrelated.

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I generally steer towards the verifiable and concrete rather than the possible or impossible to eliminate.

The pregnant girl from the fisherman's daughter is the fisherman's daughter. For her baby to be Jon, Jon would have to be older than Robb by at least the travel time from the bite to winterfell and from winterfell to riverrun... it also places Jon's birth outside the window of 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... that would make it a year before Dany.

Well, I for one do believe that Jon is actually older than Robb by a couple of months while still being 8-9 months older than Dany, working backward using Dany's birth as a baseline, so......

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Well, I for one do believe that Jon is actually older than Robb by a couple of months while still being 8-9 months older than Dany, working backward using Dany's birth as a baseline, so......

Faulty math, but that is your prerogative. Look above, I gave the reasons, and like I pointed out, from Catelyn and Ned they agree that Jon is younger than Robb. We know when Robb was conceived.

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Faulty math, but that is your prerogative. Look above, I gave the reasons, and like I pointed out, from Catelyn and Ned they agree that Jon is younger than Robb. We know when Robb was conceived.

Catelyn and Ned believe Jon is younger because that's what Ned has led everyone to believe. That does not necessarily mean this is the truth.

Ned has also led everyone to believe that Jon is a bastard that he fathered on campaign, and 105 threads disputes that "truth" as well.

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Knowing Dany's time of birth, working backwards we get Jon's time of birth, which means working still further back we can get Jon's conception. Now, add in, when do women in Westeros know they are pregnant for sure? If Pretty's Pig hypothesis is correct, then Lyanna needs to know she is pregnant, even if she is not visibly showing as of yet. And that's where I'm stumbling a bit with this.


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Catelyn and Ned believe Jon is younger because that's what Ned has led everyone to believe. That does not necessarily mean this is the truth.

Ned has also led everyone to believe that Jon is a bastard that he fathered on campaign, and 105 threads disputes that "truth" as well.

Why would Catelyn believe it if the 2-4 month olds didn't look it? Remember that Catelyn takes newborn Robb to Winterfell, and certainly has the opportunity to observe them at a time when development will give away ages rather easily. Certainly, Jon was not conceived before the war, or even in the first month of the war.

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Why would Lyanna need to know she is pregnant? I never said that. I'm hypothesizing that Ned helped her get out of the North - the pregnancy association would have come later.

But if the Fisherman's Daughter has a babe in her belly when Ned takes off, wouldn't someone need to know she was pregnant?

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Why would Catelyn believe it if the 2-4 month olds didn't look it? Remember that Catelyn takes newborn Robb to Winterfell, and certainly has the opportunity to observe them at a time when development will give away ages rather easily. Certainly, Jon was not conceived before the war, or even in the first month of the war.

I have fraternal twin boys. Absolutely positive they were born at the same time. Even in infancy one was significantly larger than the other, and he reached cognitive milestones faster. However, his brother's physical developments outpaced him, so my smaller kid was walking and grunting while his larger brother was crawling and talking. Even today, because one is 5" taller than the other, he is assumed to be at least a year older....until the other one open his mouth and dances verbal circles around his bro.

Point being, a couple of months' age difference in infancy either way wouldn't be too noticeable given that development is very individualized. 6+ months, sure, but not 2.

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it also places Jon's birth outside the window of 8 or 9 months or thereabouts before Dany... that would make it a year before Dany.

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

Ned was travelling north at the beginning of the war which raged almost a year.. a pregnant woman on a boat would give birth nine months later... at most. If the woman was known to be pregnant 8 months. That the woman was pregnant on the boat was part of the original post--- Lyanna is in fact the pregnant girl

Dany was born nine months after pregnant Rhaella fled King's Landing... almost a year after the start of the war..

Almost a year plus at least a month... a year...

None of this is answering my question. All we know is that Jon and Dany were born 8 to 9 months apart, and that Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella fled KL. If Jon's conception occured earlier, than Dany's birth occurs earlier.. As long as Jon is born in 283AC, and Dany in 284AC, then all works out fine. That Jon was born in 283AC, doesn't say anything on when his conception was.

Jon must be younger than Robb. We do see Robb celebrating his nameday before Jon's, as I recall in GoT. Catelyn and Ned both say that Jon is younger. Robb was conceived after the Battle of the Bells, when Ned and Jon Arryn married the Tully girls.

I originally though so too, but then, after lots of timeline work, I started to wonder again, and eventually, I just made a thread about it (can't recall at the moment if you participated in that or not).

Someone actually seems to remember a video interview from GRRM (released after Dance, but exact year is unknown), where GRRM answers the question of "who's older, Robb or Jon?" with a short "Jon", adding that it wasn't by much.

I have been too busy since then to actually go to Westeros.org and listen to all those video's posted between 2011 and 2014, but if the World book doesn't give the answer (and I haven't had the time before then to watch some of those video's), and no one else in between manages to find that video, than I'll go watch those video's, I guess.. To figure out if that person remembered correctly.

Here's the thread, in case you'd like to participate.

Knowing Dany's time of birth, working backwards we get Jon's time of birth, which means working still further back we can get Jon's conception. Now, add in, when do women in Westeros know they are pregnant for sure? If Pretty's Pig hypothesis is correct, then Lyanna needs to know she is pregnant, even if she is not visibly showing as of yet. And that's where I'm stumbling a bit with this.

People "generally" start to show in the 2nd or 3rd month.. Then you'll start to see slightly. But that is generally. There are also women who don't notice that they are pregnant until they give birth, both heavier women and skinny women (extremely dangerous for the child, such a scenario).

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But if the Fisherman's Daughter has a babe in her belly when Ned takes off, wouldn't someone need to know she was pregnant?

I assume that Ned did indeed leave her with some silver, because her father had died (and to pay for the crossing). That he left her pregnant, according to the tale, would be concluded later, of course, after Jon was known to all.

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But if the Fisherman's Daughter has a babe in her belly when Ned takes off, wouldn't someone need to know she was pregnant?

Afterwards, sure. Godric Borrell also told Davos she named the boy Jon, after Jon Arryn. THAT is most certainly ex post facto knowledge; the pregnancy could be as well.

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