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Moments of Foreshadowing 10

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This quote from ASOS was posted by Paper Waver early in thread nr9:




She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky.Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.


She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who’d tended to her previously had all been Cersei’s spies, just as Sansa had always suspected. “Come see,” she told them. “There’s a castle in the sky.”


They came to have a look. “It’s made of gold.” Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes. She did all that was asked of her, but sometimes she gave Sansa the most insolent looks. “A castle all of gold, there’s a sight I’d like to see.”


“A castle, is it?” Brella had to squint. “That tower’s tumbling over, looks like. It’s all ruins, that is.”



Paper Waver went on to write that he thinks the imagery is about Brienne and Jaime.



I have an alternative interpretation, based on the context of the scene: this is right before the wedding of the century, the marriage of Joff and Margaery and the official sealing of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. I think that Sansa may have unwittingly seen the way this alliance will turn out: 2 great castles with shades of rose (Tyrell) and gold and crimson (Lannister) come together to form one big castle: the great western alliance. However, Brella sees a tower tumbling over (the tower of the hand, which Cersei will burn?) and the new, single castle is now "all ruins". Which is probably the state of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the very end of ADWD, or probably will be quite early in TWOW.


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This quote from ASOS was posted by Paper Waver early in thread nr9:

Paper Waver went on to write that he thinks the imagery is about Brienne and Jaime.

I have an alternative interpretation, based on the context of the scene: this is right before the wedding of the century, the marriage of Joff and Margaery and the official sealing of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. I think that Sansa may have unwittingly seen the way this alliance will turn out: 2 great castles with shades of rose (Tyrell) and gold and crimson (Lannister) come together to form one big castle: the great western alliance. However, Brella sees a tower tumbling over (the tower of the hand, which Cersei will burn?) and the new, single castle is now "all ruins". Which is probably the state of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the very end of ADWD, or probably will be quite early in TWOW.

I always interpreted this as the ruin of House Frey. The two castles are the Twins. First they were neutral (black like the NW), then they supported Robb (grey), and now they support the Lannister-Tyrell alliance (gold, rose and crimson) and soon their House will be ruined and they will lose the Twins

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And late in thread 9, "Dreams and prophecies" posted this:

Sandor to Sansa:


“You'll be glad of the hateful things I do one day, when you're queen and I'm the only thing that stands between you and your beloved king.”

I can't help but think that is foreshadowing for an event to come.

Since there are some pointers Tyrion may become king somehow (Jon's "his shadow stood tall as a king" and similar observations from Aemon, Moqorro and to a lesser extent the Viserys II exchange between Oberyn and Tyrion), this passage could yet be about Sansa's situation in later books. Especially if Sansa would still not be particularly happy about marriage to Tyrion and she could entertain an affair of kinds with Sandor. Though maybe that would be too close to what Cersei did, even if she would make sure any children would be her husbands.

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I always interpreted this as the ruin of House Frey. The two castles are the Twins. First they were neutral (black like the NW), then they supported Robb (grey), and now they support the Lannister-Tyrell alliance (gold, rose and crimson) and soon their House will be ruined and they will lose the Twins

What I miss in this interpretation is an explanation for the "one castle where there had been two". And Shae still claims to see a gold castle at that time (possibly because the rather shallow Shae may only see the surface glitter of the glamorous Joffrey/Margaery marriage), so it is not because it's ruined instantly.

The Frey castles are physically two towers, I don't see a reason why they would litterally become one, especially not without getting ruined instantly.

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What I miss in this interpretation is an explanation for the "one castle where there had been two". And Shae still claims to see a gold castle at that time (possibly because the rather shallow Shae may only see the surface glitter of the glamorous Joffrey/Margaery marriage), so it is not because it's ruined instantly.

The Frey castles are physically two towers, I don't see a reason why they would litterally become one, especially not without getting ruined instantly.

Perhaps they will lose one of the Twins, which on the map shows up as two castles on either side of the Green Fork, to the BWB or Black Walder, or it represents the Freys uniting again after they fight amongst themselves over the succession

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This quote from ASOS was posted by Paper Waver early in thread nr9:

Paper Waver went on to write that he thinks the imagery is about Brienne and Jaime.

I have an alternative interpretation, based on the context of the scene: this is right before the wedding of the century, the marriage of Joff and Margaery and the official sealing of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. I think that Sansa may have unwittingly seen the way this alliance will turn out: 2 great castles with shades of rose (Tyrell) and gold and crimson (Lannister) come together to form one big castle: the great western alliance. However, Brella sees a tower tumbling over (the tower of the hand, which Cersei will burn?) and the new, single castle is now "all ruins". Which is probably the state of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the very end of ADWD, or probably will be quite early in TWOW.

Nice.

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This quote from ASOS was posted by Paper Waver early in thread nr9:

Paper Waver went on to write that he thinks the imagery is about Brienne and Jaime.

I have an alternative interpretation, based on the context of the scene: this is right before the wedding of the century, the marriage of Joff and Margaery and the official sealing of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. I think that Sansa may have unwittingly seen the way this alliance will turn out: 2 great castles with shades of rose (Tyrell) and gold and crimson (Lannister) come together to form one big castle: the great western alliance. However, Brella sees a tower tumbling over (the tower of the hand, which Cersei will burn?) and the new, single castle is now "all ruins". Which is probably the state of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the very end of ADWD, or probably will be quite early in TWOW.

I like this interpretation.

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This quote from ASOS was posted by Paper Waver early in thread nr9:

Paper Waver went on to write that he thinks the imagery is about Brienne and Jaime.

I have an alternative interpretation, based on the context of the scene: this is right before the wedding of the century, the marriage of Joff and Margaery and the official sealing of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. I think that Sansa may have unwittingly seen the way this alliance will turn out: 2 great castles with shades of rose (Tyrell) and gold and crimson (Lannister) come together to form one big castle: the great western alliance. However, Brella sees a tower tumbling over (the tower of the hand, which Cersei will burn?) and the new, single castle is now "all ruins". Which is probably the state of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the very end of ADWD, or probably will be quite early in TWOW.

It's an interesting idea on the "Western Alliance". The standard idea that I recall is that it was to represent Winterfell and the Rock in conflict.

As to the idea of the two castles representing Brienne and Jaime, do you have specific details what the person said?

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It's an interesting idea on the "Western Alliance". The standard idea that I recall is that it was to represent Winterfell and the Rock in conflict.

As to the idea of the two castles representing Brienne and Jaime, do you have specific details what the person said?

See the original post: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110630-moments-of-foreshadowing-9/page-2#entry5830336

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And that is one that I don't actually agree with.

When considering this scene and the part where she builds the snow castle later is there any other implication to be drawn perhaps?

Actually considering these ideas in my head kind of makes me realize that castle imagery kind of goes hand in hand with Sansa's character more then others. Seems to be a running symbol/concept for her character.

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I posted this in the last thread...

Near the kennels a group of men-at-arms were fighting a pair of dogs. Tyrion stopped long enough to see the smaller dog tear half the face off the larger one, and earned a few coarse laughs by observing that the loser now resembled Sandor Clegane.

Tyrion II, Storm

I suppose this foreshadows the eventual showdown between the brothers Clegane. It looks like Sandor will lose, but perhaps expose Gregor for the undead monster thst he has become...

And there is this where Sandor tells us about his intention to kill Gregor...

"Gregor never knew what he had, did he? He couldn't have, or he would have dragged you back kicking and screaming to King's Landing and dumped you in Cersei's lap. Oh, that's bloody sweet. I'll be sure and tell him that, before I cut his heart out."

Arya IX, Storm

UnGregor will slay Sandor because Sandor has no intention of killing his brother and thus he will lose the eventual showdown...

It all happened so fast. The Knight of Flowers was shouting for his own sword as Ser Gregor knocked his squire aside and made a grab for the reins of his horse. The mare scented blood and reared. Loras Tyrell kept his seat, but barely. Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage two-handed blow that took the boy in the chest and knocked him from the saddle. The courser dashed away in panic as Ser Loras lay stunned in the dirt. But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, "Leave him be," and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy.

The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound's-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face.

It was the king's voice that put an end to it . . . the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"

The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his Kingsguard and a dozen other knights and guardsmen. Wordlessly, he turned and strode off, shoving past Barristan Selmy. "Let him go," Robert said, and as quickly as that, it was over.

Eddard VII, Game

Sandor actively avoided trying to kill his brother at his own peril in Eddard VII, Game. He expressed an intention to kill his brother in Arya IX, Storm. But nothing changed in their relation in the interim. Sandor jad no more reason to kill Gregor than when he actively avoided trying to kill his brother.

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The first time I read Feast, I didn't think much of Brella, the washerwoman Brienne ran in who claimed to have served both Renly and Sansa. Then I found her again in Tyrion and Sansa's Storm chapters. So it wasn't just a random woman.


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Jaime shouting the word "Sapphire" to save Brienne from being raped (and most likely killed since she said she was going to fight back) is not unlike Brienne shouting "Sword" to save Podrick from being hanged by the Brotherhood Without Banners.


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Arya peered over the edge and felt the cold black breath on her face. Far below, she saw

the light of a single torch, small as the flame of a candle. Two men, she made out. Their shadows writhed against the sides of the well, tall as giants. She could hear their voices, echoing up the shaft.

" . . . found one bastard," one said. "The rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight . . . "

"And when he learns the truth, what will he do?" a second voice asked in the liquid accents of the Free Cities.

"The gods alone know," the first voice said. Arya could see a wisp of grey smoke drifting up off the torch, writhing like a snake as it rose. "The fools tried to kill his son, and what's worse, they made a mummer's farce of it. He's not a man to put that aside. I warn you, the wolf and lion will soon be at each other's throats, whether we will it or no."

"Too soon, too soon," the voice with the accent complained. "What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."

"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"

The other chuckled. "No less." Flames licked at the cold air. The tall shadows were almost on top of her. An instant later the man holding the torch climbed into her sight, his companion beside him. Arya crept back away from the well, dropped to her stomach, and flattened herself against the wall. She held her breath as the men reached the top of the steps.

"What would you have me do?" asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. Even in heavy boots, his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him.

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

"Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other," the scarred man said as they stepped out into the hall. Still as stone, Arya told herself, quiet as a shadow. Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away.

"Perhaps so," the forked beard replied, pausing to catch his breath after the long climb. "Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."

The man with the torch pushed at something. Arya heard a deep rumbling. A huge slab of rock, red in the torchlight, slid down out of the ceiling with a resounding crash that almost made her cry out. Where the entry to the well had been was nothing but stone, solid and unbroken.

"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late," the stout man in the steel cap said. "This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger . . . the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

" . . . the risk . . . "

Long after their voices had faded away, Arya could still see the light of the torch, a smoking star that bid her follow. Twice it seemed to disappear, but she kept on straight, and both times she found herself at the top of steep, narrow stairs, the torch glimmering far below her. She hurried after it, down and down. Once she stumbled over a rock and fell against the wall, and her hand found raw earth supported by timbers, whereas before the tunnel had been dressed stone.

(for length)

One thing that really stood out to me is the many mentions of fire in its various forms (flame, torch, light, etc.), which I've bolded. Fire. Lots and lots of fire. And dragon skulls in the dark; i.e., hidden dragons perhaps. Or, maybe a finer point can be put on it; hidden (thought to be) dead dragons. As in, the Blackfyre and/or Brightflame lines. Which in a way makes sense, since Varys and Illyrio are introduced in this scene almost as if they are emerging from the underworld.

From somewhere far below her, she heard noises. The scrape of boots, the distant sound of voices. A flickering light brushed the wall ever so faintly, and she saw that she stood at the top of a great black well, a shaft twenty feet across plunging deep into the earth. Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth . . .


So, the Blackfyres and possibly Brightflames coming back from hell (Hades, the underworld) or the dead.

Another thing that stood out to me is that, yet again, a Stark uses stone to hide: "Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away." And that sentence looks like it was ripped from a foreshadowing 101 text. :) Maybe something like: the Black/Brightfyres couldn't see the threat of Arya, Jon, or the Starks. I prefer the explanation with Jon, since he is another hidden dragon, yet Varys and Illyrio never saw him coming, since they were concerned with their own hidden dragon; i.e., Blinded by their own torch.

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Well, some have theorized that Arya will kill maybe Varys, Illyrio, or Aegon. Her insurance man points to them. Shady businessman, with hands like spiders, and she kills him with a poisoned dragon coin but I'm not certain she will kill them but it's possible that that scene in AGoT is supposed to come full circle and she is supposed to encounter Varys and Illyrio again.

Also, her latest chapter possibly points to Blackfyre.

Quote



“The first Black Pearl was black as a pot of ink,” said Daena. “She was a pirate queen, fathered by a Sealord’s son on a princess from the Summer Isles. A dragon king from Westeros took her for his lover.”

“I would like to see a dragon,” Mercy said wistfully. “Why does the envoy have a chicken on his chest?”

There's mention of a dragon king and she immediately wishes to see a dragon.There's talk of the Black Pearl who was likely the mistress of Daemon Blackfyre's father Her friends name is Daena. The original Daena was the mother of Daemon.

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Arya peered over the edge and felt the cold black breath on her face. Far below, she saw

the light of a single torch, small as the flame of a candle. Two men, she made out. Their shadows writhed against the sides of the well, tall as giants. She could hear their voices, echoing up the shaft.

" . . . found one bastard," one said. "The rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight . . . "

"And when he learns the truth, what will he do?" a second voice asked in the liquid accents of the Free Cities.

"The gods alone know," the first voice said. Arya could see a wisp of grey smoke drifting up off the torch, writhing like a snake as it rose. "The fools tried to kill his son, and what's worse, they made a mummer's farce of it. He's not a man to put that aside. I warn you, the wolf and lion will soon be at each other's throats, whether we will it or no."

"Too soon, too soon," the voice with the accent complained. "What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."

"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"

The other chuckled. "No less." Flames licked at the cold air. The tall shadows were almost on top of her. An instant later the man holding the torch climbed into her sight, his companion beside him. Arya crept back away from the well, dropped to her stomach, and flattened herself against the wall. She held her breath as the men reached the top of the steps.

"What would you have me do?" asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. Even in heavy boots, his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him.

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

"Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other," the scarred man said as they stepped out into the hall. Still as stone, Arya told herself, quiet as a shadow. Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away.

"Perhaps so," the forked beard replied, pausing to catch his breath after the long climb. "Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."

The man with the torch pushed at something. Arya heard a deep rumbling. A huge slab of rock, red in the torchlight, slid down out of the ceiling with a resounding crash that almost made her cry out. Where the entry to the well had been was nothing but stone, solid and unbroken.

"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late," the stout man in the steel cap said. "This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger . . . the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

" . . . the risk . . . "

Long after their voices had faded away, Arya could still see the light of the torch, a smoking star that bid her follow. Twice it seemed to disappear, but she kept on straight, and both times she found herself at the top of steep, narrow stairs, the torch glimmering far below her. She hurried after it, down and down. Once she stumbled over a rock and fell against the wall, and her hand found raw earth supported by timbers, whereas before the tunnel had been dressed stone.

(for length)

One thing that really stood out to me is the many mentions of fire in its various forms (flame, torch, light, etc.), which I've bolded. Fire. Lots and lots of fire. And dragon skulls in the dark; i.e., hidden dragons perhaps. Or, maybe a finer point can be put on it; hidden (thought to be) dead dragons. As in, the Blackfyre and/or Brightflame lines. Which in a way makes sense, since Varys and Illyrio are introduced in this scene almost as if they are emerging from the underworld.

So, the Blackfyres and possibly Brightflames coming back from hell (Hades, the underworld) or the dead.

Another thing that stood out to me is that, yet again, a Stark uses stone to hide: "Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away." And that sentence looks like it was ripped from a foreshadowing 101 text. :) Maybe something like: the Black/Brightfyres couldn't see the threat of Arya, Jon, or the Starks. I prefer the explanation with Jon, since he is another hidden dragon, yet Varys and Illyrio never saw him coming, since they were concerned with their own hidden dragon; i.e., Blinded by their own torch.

Did you happen to catch the discussion I had with Lord Martin here?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111884-varyss-backstory-what-are-the-readers-expected-to-believe/

That smoking star reference may allude to Bloodraven and Seastar or Melisandre. Just a thought though...

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Did you happen to catch the discussion I had with Lord Martin here?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111884-varyss-backstory-what-are-the-readers-expected-to-believe/

That smoking star reference may allude to Bloodraven and Seastar or Melisandre. Just a thought though...

Yes. That's where I initially came across this passage, and posted my thoughts. Interesting thread.

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