Moments of Foreshadowing 10

[Joan Jett]

 

"He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall." -aFFC

 

Chocs pointed this quote out to me earlier and I haven't been able to shake it.  Possible foreshadowing that Arya will leave Braavos to avenge Jon Snow? Given R+L=J and Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married, Jon is a Targaryen prince. And Arya and Jon were close, so he can be considered her prince. The NW has a big presence in the chapter as well.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Chocs pointed this quote out to me earlier and I haven't been able to shake it.  Possible foreshadowing that Arya will leave Braavos to avenge Jon Snow? Given R+L=J and Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married, Jon is a Targaryen prince. And Arya and Jon were close, so he can be considered her prince. The NW has a big presence in the chapter as well.

I always assumed it was an in-story allusion to Ashara Dayne, and it gives us an insight into Arya's thirst for vengeance against all the wrongs done to her family.

[Joan Jett]

I always assumed it was an in-story allusion to Ashara Dayne, and it gives us an insight into Arya's thirst for vengeance against all the wrongs done to her family.

Yes, when I searched the quote I found only threads talking about Ashara Dayne, but I don't think that's what happened to her. And it can have multiple meanings anyway.

We already know about Arya's thirst for vengeance. I like to apply it to Arya and the prince in her life who may need avenging. Also there are many NW mentions before and after the quote.

[Isobel Harper]

I always assumed it was an in-story allusion to Ashara Dayne, and it gives us an insight into Arya's thirst for vengeance against all the wrongs done to her family.

 

I did too on first first read, but now I think it might reference Helaena and her son Jaehaerys.  Arya thinks about the lady avenging her son, where as Ashara's child was not (supposedly) murdered; it was stillborn.

[Arrow of the Morning]

In AFFC Obara seems to have a great rancor against Oldtown and dreams to, one day, attack and burn the city.

 

 

 

"I know better. You need not even leave your chair. Let me avenge my father. You have a host in the Prince's Pass. Lord Yronwood has another in the Boneway. Grant me the one and Nym the other. Let her ride the kingsroad, whilst I turn the marcher lords out of their castles and hook round to march on Oldtown." 

 

Obara, A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

 

Her sisters know it and said 

 

 

Nym laughed. "Yes, she wants to set the torch to Oldtown. She hates that city as much as our little sister loves it."

 

 

 

"Tyene. Obara is too loud. Tyene is so sweet and gentle that no man will suspect her. Obara would make Oldtown our father's funeral pyre, but I am not so greedy. Four lives will suffice for me. Lord Tywin's golden twins, as payment for Elia's children. The old lion, for Elia herself. And last of all the little king, for my father."

 

May be it can be a foreshadow about what can happen in Winds. May be Obara will attack Oldtown and, may be, dying trying it.

[Mithras]

Dany will be the one who destroys Oldtown, not Obara. I think Darkstar will slay Obara.

[LmL]

 
Chocs pointed this quote out to me earlier and I haven't been able to shake it.  Possible foreshadowing that Arya will leave Braavos to avenge Jon Snow? Given R+L=J and Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married, Jon is a Targaryen prince. And Arya and Jon were close, so he can be considered her prince. The NW has a big presence in the chapter as well.

Is there still room on this bandwagon? Because I'd like to get on. I've picked up clues that Arya's fate lies at the Wall with Jon based on my astronomy research, and I think this fits. And gods, don't we need something therapeutic like this?

Nice job there Joan Jett and Chocs. I'll be on the lookout for anything else along these lines.

[Joan Jett]

Is there still room on this bandwagon? Because I'd like to get on. I've picked up clues that Arya's fate lies at the Wall with Jon based on my astronomy research, and I think this fits. And gods, don't we need something therapeutic like this?

Of course there's room! We only have two people so far  :laugh:

 

Can you link me to the clues you found in your research?

[LmL]

Of course there's room! We only have two people so far  :laugh:

 

Can you link me to the clues you found in your research?

 

 

No, unfortunately I have not put that in any of my theories so far - it's just something I remember noticing a couple of times. I may have something somewhere in my notes; I'll see if I can track it down for you tomorrow. 

[Chocs]

 

 

No, unfortunately I have not put that in any of my theories so far - it's just something I remember noticing a couple of times. I may have something somewhere in my notes; I'll see if I can track it down for you tomorrow. 

 

Please do. Your theories are very fascinating to read.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Men from Dorne and men from the Reach apparently hate each other. We know that nationalists are often able to play on such hatreds to motivate conflict for political gain. Perhaps the friends in the Reach will provide motivation for Houses Yronwood, Dayne, Fowler, Uller, Blackmont, and Manwoody to defy House Martell and fight with Daenerys?

[LmL]

 

Please do. Your theories are very fascinating to read.

 

Well gosh, if you're going to flatter me like that... :blushing:

 

Ok, so the foreshadowing about Arya (and Rickon, actually). It's a bit obscure, and its from TWOIAF.  I understand if you don't see it, but here it is, fwiw. This is all about the Kingdom of Sarnor and the grasslands, a section which is highly metaphorical IMO.  Any time TWOIAF goes into a detailed description of a war or battle, such as the battle in the Vale between the Andals and First Men kingdoms, I believe we are getting metaphorical clues. TWOIAF is basically a massive drop of puzzle clues to the main series, disguised as a wordbook. That's how I see it, anyway. It's easter egg city. Anyway.

 

Sarnor had 11 cities:

• Sarnath of the Tall Towers
• Kasath, City of Caravans
• Sathar, the Waterfall City
• Gornath by the Lake
• Sallosh by the Silver Shore, City of Scholars
• Rathylar
• Hornoth
• Kyth
• Mardosh the Unconquerable, City of Soldiers
• Saath the only surviving city
• Sarys

 

The Dothraki burned and destroyed all of these cities in about a century, save for Saath, the lone survivor, who itself is greatly reduced and a shadow of its former self. But if you keep reading in the grasslands section, you'll see that there are 2 other cities on the grasslands which were sacked and burned at the same time: Essaria, and Ibbish. This means we have 13 cities attacked by Dothrakai, and only one survivor. This is Last Hero math - 12 + 1, with the 12 dying, and the LH being reduced / injured / etc. 

 

Throughout all of this, the Dothraki play the role of destroyers, andI think they represent the Others in this limited example. The Sarnori King of Gornath at one point allied with the Dothraki, fighting other Sarnori rivals, and his story sounds like the Night's King. Check it out:

 

"the King of Gornath died at the hands of his own Dothraki wife, who despised him for his weakness, we are told. Afterward, Khal Horro took her for his own, and rats devoured the corpse of her late husband."

 

The Night's King gave his seed and soul to the NQ - that would certainly weaken him, just as Stannis giving his seeds to the Red Queen Melisandre drains his life force. The NK was "sacrificing" to the Others, and we know that at least for Craster, sacrificing means giving the Others your seed to be made into white shadows. So, we have the King of Gornath, weakened, and then his Dothraki wife kills him. The NK wasn't killed by the NQ, but she sucked his life force, which is very similar. Then rats devoured his corpse, reminding us of the Nightfort. 

 

Khal Horro was the last unified Khal of the Dothraki, after he died his khalasar split into a dozen lesser ones. The Night's King was the 13th LC, and he was cast down... by the Stark AND by the King Beyond the Wall, Joramun. The King beyond the Wall is kind of a symbolic stand in for the king of the Others, as the king of all northern peoples. We don't know what happened to the Night's Queen, but she was not reported to have died. Maybe she married Joramin! I'm mostly kidding - these metaphors do not usually correlate with every little detail. Sometimes two people play the same role - so the King Of Gornath, who married this NQ figure, represents the NK, but so to may Horro... it's hard to say, but you can see the general pattern of the NK / NQ here.

 

So, here's the crux of it: Saath, the one survivor of the 13 (our LH in this scenario), is kept alive by the aid of Lorath and Ib. Lorath is where Jaquen Hagar comes from, so I take this to represent Arya. Ib has much in common with Skagos, and the Ibbenese are described as "shaggy." Skagos is suspected to have a strong Ibbenese lineage, to tighten the connection. The island of Ib has giants (bones of giants), mammoths, and UNICORNS. So, I take Ibbish to represent Rickon. 

 

The Last hero city survives, greatly reduced, with the help of Arya city and Rickon city. If anyone is playing the role of LH, it is probably Jon. He will survive, but reduced (resurrected as a Coldhands-type wight, IMO). 

Not exactly your typical foreshadowing, but once you start looking for familiar patterns like this in TWOIAF, you see them a lot. In the tale of Yi Ti and the Jogos Nhai, there's Lo Bu and Zia "Zorseface." Lo Bu is a Yi Tish King who sets out to vanquish the Jogos Nhai once and for all. He divides his army into 13 parts, and travels north (LH alert). Lo Bu is "the boy too bold by half." The Night's King knew no fear, and many think the NK and the LH are the same. I don't know if that's so, so Lo Bu could be either one or both. Point is, Zia Zorseface kills all 12 of his armies, isolates Lo Bu, and then slaughters his 13th army. His skull is made into a gilded drinking cup, and the Jogos Nhai supposedly still have it. That's KIND OF like surviving in a reduced fashion. The skull cup is gilded; which connotes glory, so the implication is a noble sacrifice, with a remnant surviving on. 

In this example, Zia (Arya) kills the Last Hero. But she is also the one to make the gilded cup. So... is she the one to sacrifice Ghost? Sacrificing Ghost (or the wolf body anyway, Ghost's spirit will merge with Jon's while Jon is in the wolf, so resurrected Jon will have his own spirit and that of Ghost, making him GhostJon) may be key to Jon surviving in some limited capacity. So even in this scenario, Arya is helping Jon "survive," just as in the previous example. There's also the suggestion of Zia / Arya killing the allies of the LH, which may refer to the NW, who were Jon's allies until they mutinied. 

 

The name Zia appears one other place: she is the daughter of Tytos Frey and Zhoe Blanetree. Tytos is killed at the red wedding by Sandor, outside the castle. Of course Arya was with Sandor and helped him kill those knights (of which Tytos was apparently one). I'm to sure what is being implied here, but it would seem to be another link between Zia and Arya. 

 

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that Gornath, the city whose king plays the NK role, is described as being "to the North." Gornath helped the Dothraki defeat Kasath, which was "to the West." If we are speaking about the NK and the LH, then we are really talking about the war for the dawn. I've long speculated that Azor Ahai (a bad guy according to me) invaded Westeros at battle Isle, where we find rumors of dragons and that Dawn Age, pre-Valyrian fused stone fortress at Oldtown. Ergo, Kasatth "to the west" might represent the Reach, and perhaps the Starks allied with AA to fight the Reach / Westerlands. Not sure, just throwing it out. Battle Isle is named for an important battle no one can remember, and I already thought this a likely spot for the first battle of the war for the dawn, so maybe that's what we are getting at here. 

[LmL]

As for GhostJon, he is foreshadowed clearly, and again we find Arya in the mix:

Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps. Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. (Nightfort reference) Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand. When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid ,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too. The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her. The stableboy was dead, she’d killed him, and if he jumped out at her she’d kill him again. She was going home. Everything would be better once she was home again, safe behind Winterfell’s grey granite walls. Her footsteps sent soft echoes hurrying ahead of her as Arya plunged deeper into the darkness.

 

Jon's gut stabbing by Bowen was described as a punch. Here again we see the implication that Arya has something to do with killing Jon, or a part of Jon (which would be the wolf body, I assume). And Jon himself is clearly GhostJon. His resurrection is clearly foreshadowed, as he emerges from the crypts of the Kings of Winter ( I call all Stark lords Kings of Winter, because that is their ASOIAF archetype, whether there Kings in the North or Lord of Winterfell... Lord Snow... its all the same. 

[Chocs]

 

analysis

 

That's truly intriguing and very fascinating to read. I was leaning towards Zia Zorseface being more of a thing towards Dany, but reading the Arya angle is pretty great, too. I would be truly heartbroken if Ghost was sacrificed, but I can see it as a possibility. You do open a path to new possibilities and tie them up in a really good manner. :)

[LmL]

 

 

 

That's truly intriguing and very fascinating to read. I was leaning towards Zia Zorseface being more of a thing towards Dany, but reading the Arya angle is pretty great, too. I would be truly heartbroken if Ghost was sacrificed, but I can see it as a possibility. You do open a path to new possibilities and tie them up in a really good manner. :)

 

 

Thanks, glad you liked it. It's a bit obscure, surely, but but once you sort of get the swing of how George is hiding things in TWOAIF, it makes a good amount of sense, I think.

 

As for Ghost, consider the Mithras angle on Jon: Mithras kills the white bull, which is a part of himself, to be reborn. The bull;s lifeblood flows over the earth and triggers regeneration... springtime... and I think that fits the idea of sacrificing the wolf body to raise Jon and enable him to fill the air with sweetness, like the blue rose at the Wall, and bring the spring. 

A white bull died at Jon's birth (Gerold Hightower), and i think Ghost will be the second version of the white bull. Not sure Jon will kill him - Jon will be dead at the moment, so I don't know how he pulls that off - but George isn't doing a one to eon correlation of any of his influences of course. 

[Chocs]

 

Thanks, glad you liked it. It's a bit obscure, surely, but but once you sort of get the swing of how George is hiding things in TWOAIF, it makes a good amount of sense, I think.

 

As for Ghost, consider the Mithras angle on Jon: Mithras kills the white bull, which is a part of himself, to be reborn. The bull;s lifeblood flows over the earth and triggers regeneration... springtime... and I think that fits the idea of sacrificing the wolf body to raise Jon and enable him to fill the air with sweetness, like the blue rose at the Wall, and bring the spring. 

A white bull died at Jon's birth (Gerold Hightower), and i think Ghost will be the second version of the white bull. Not sure Jon will kill him - Jon will be dead at the moment, so I don't know how he pulls that off - but George isn't doing a one to eon correlation of any of his influences of course. 

 

I agree about the TWOIAF part, I think there will be a lot of events that take place in the series paralleling with TWOIAF; particularly, the CotF controlling wolves, I can see that as a possibility with Arya.

 

I'm a bit skeptical about Ghost being sacrificed, but it's a possibility. It will definitely be very sad, tho.

[LmL]

 

I agree about the TWOIAF part, I think there will be a lot of events that take place in the series paralleling with TWOIAF; particularly, the CotF controlling wolves, I can see that as a possibility with Arya.

 

I'm a bit skeptical about Ghost being sacrificed, but it's a possibility. It will definitely be very sad, tho.

 

 

I really think that Ghost's spirit will have time to merge with Jon's, so really we should probably think about this as a sacrifice of the "wolf body." It's the spirit / soul which is really important, and I think that Ghost's spirit will indeed live on in Jon. So don't be too sad. Ghost is Jon's shadow.  I mean, consider the name: ghost. It's kind of a foreshadowing all on its own. Taken with the GhostJon scene above... Jon will be merging with his ghost shadow, is how I see it.

[Chocs]

 

 

I really think that Ghost's spirit will have time to merge with Jon's, so really we should probably think about this as a sacrifice of the "wolf body." It's the spirit / soul which is really important, and I think that Ghost's spirit will indeed live on in Jon. So don't be too sad. Ghost is Jon's shadow.  I mean, consider the name: ghost. It's kind of a foreshadowing all on its own. Taken with the GhostJon scene above... Jon will be merging with his ghost shadow, is how I see it.

 

It's interesting. GRRM is not exactly writing a happy saga.. so even if it happens the way you describe it, it would be understandable. 

[lojzelote]

 

 

I really think that Ghost's spirit will have time to merge with Jon's, so really we should probably think about this as a sacrifice of the "wolf body." It's the spirit / soul which is really important, and I think that Ghost's spirit will indeed live on in Jon. So don't be too sad. Ghost is Jon's shadow.  I mean, consider the name: ghost. It's kind of a foreshadowing all on its own. Taken with the GhostJon scene above... Jon will be merging with his ghost shadow, is how I see it.

It seems even sadder to me, like a prolonging of the inevitable; if human conscience after a longer time spent in the animal host disappears, the same must be true in the opposite case. I wonder if the host can feel the 'guest' slowly evaporating?

[LmL]

Well consider that Bran learns that all warted animals have a shadow on the soul, that of the person who was the warg and then merged with animal consciousness. So, the merged spirit does not fade completely. But Jon's situation will be unique, except for that of Coldhands perhaps, in that his human and animal spirit will begin to merge, and then the combined spirit will inhabit the resurrected body. Jon's personality will be more like a wolf.