Moments of Foreshadowing 10

[sj4iy]

The only thing I was trying to convince you of, is that some of your objections were based on incorrect assumptions, or a lack of understanding regarding the theory and its underlying concepts. For example, I'm not sure if you're even aware that Schmendrick's theory basically fits within parameters you've given in this discussion.

My objections are based on the fact that that I think Lightbringer will be a weapon. That's it. To me, it HAS to be a weapon, not a person. Whether it's a sword, a dragon or an army, it's still a weapon. No "second-in-command" will ever wield a leader...to me, that's nonsensical. AAR is clearly a person in this case- the one who will drive darkness away. He (or she) will do so with Lightbringer.

It is what it is. If I'm wrong, so be it. But that's how I read and understand the story.

[J. Stargaryen]

My objections are based on the fact that that I think Lightbringer will be a weapon. That's it. To me, it HAS to be a weapon, not a person. Whether it's a sword, a dragon or an army, it's still a weapon. No "second-in-command" will ever wield a leader...to me, that's nonsensical. AAR is clearly a person in this case- the one who will drive darkness away. He (or she) will do so with Lightbringer.

It is what it is. If I'm wrong, so be it. But that's how I read and understand the story.

What about a dragon that was warged by Jon? Would that count as a weapon, in your opinion? Because, despite the thread title, it's actually supposed to be Jon + a dragon (likely Drogon) = Lightbringer, according to Schmendrick's theory. Anyone who thinks that Jon warging a dragon is possible, already shares common ground with the theory. It's worth mentioning that what Schmendrick calls LB, could also reasonably be interpreted as AAr wielding his flaming sword. The difference in interpretation here would be a matter of degrees.

As far as I know, no one is arguing that a second in command will wield Jon-as-LB. Or that AAr will "wield" Jon-as-LB. Just that they will work together.

[sj4iy]

What about a dragon that was warged by Jon? Would that count as a weapon, in your opinion? Because, despite the thread title, it's actually supposed to be Jon + a dragon (likely Drogon) = Lightbringer, according to Schmendrick's theory. Anyone who thinks that Jon warging a dragon is possible, already shares common ground with the theory. It's worth mentioning that what Schmendrick calls LB, could also reasonably be interpreted as AAr wielding his flaming sword. The difference in interpretation here would be a matter of degrees.

As far as I know, no one is arguing that a second in command will wield Jon-as-LB. Or that AAr will "wield" Jon-as-LB. Just that they will work together.

If it takes a leap of imagination for me to believe something, then I typically don't, because that usually means I'm thinking too hard about something trying to make it fit. That's what's happening here. We have a pretty clearly written prophecy and clearly told legend. I see no reason to obfuscate it with weak metaphors.

[J. Stargaryen]

If it takes a leap of imagination for me to believe something, then I typically don't, because that usually means I'm thinking too hard about something trying to make it fit. That's what's happening here. We have a pretty clearly written prophecy and clearly told legend. I see no reason to obfuscate it with weak metaphors.

Which one?

When you just know that a theory is wrong, yet are unable to offer up any legitimate, specific criticisms against it, you can always claim that your opposition is: reaching, reading too much into it or, as we see here, using weak metaphors. Guaranteed to win you the argument, or your money back!

[sj4iy]

Which one?

When you just know that a theory is wrong, yet are unable to offer up any legitimate, specific criticisms against it, you can always claim that your opposition is: reaching, reading too much into it or, as we see here, using weak metaphors. Guaranteed to win you the argument, or your money back!

Uh, the ONLY prophecy and ONLY legend? I'm on mobile, I can't post huge quotes of text on mobile...but it shouldn't be necessary in this case. Lightbringer will be drawn from the fire, and he who grasps it will be AAR, and all darkness will flee before him. The legend that says how Lightbringer is forged by AA. It's all very specific and not vague at all.

I've already said my peace and given legitimate criticism of this theory. Jon and Davos have NEVER MET. The idea that they will somehow "come together" and Davos will "grasp" Jon with a handshake and then "use him" to make the darkness flee is nonsensical. You could literally put anyone else in that situation. Davos hasn't woken dragons from stone. As Stannis' man, he's too loyal to ever switch sides. If Davos has anything at all to do with the Starks, it's going to be with Rickon most likely. In any case, how would Davos pull Jon from a fire? When would he do it?

And Rhaegar isn't AAR because he's dead.

There are my legit criticisms of a weak theory. Unless something extremely and utterly unexpected happens in the next two books, there is no possibility of Lightbringer being Jon IMO. There's much more evidence supporting Jon as AAR, and even more for Dany. I'm a logical person, I don't go in for crackpots without more evidence than "he could shake his hand".

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Uh, the ONLY prophecy and ONLY legend? I'm on mobile, I can't post huge quotes of text on mobile...but it shouldn't be necessary in this case. Lightbringer will be drawn from the fire, and he who grasps it will be AAR, and all darkness will flee before him. The legend that says how Lightbringer is forged by AA. It's all very specific and not vague at all.

I've already said my peace and given legitimate criticism of this theory. Jon and Davos have NEVER MET. The idea that they will somehow "come together" and Davos will "grasp" Jon with a handshake and then "use him" to make the darkness flee is nonsensical. You could literally put anyone else in that situation. Davos hasn't woken dragons from stone. As Stannis' man, he's too loyal to ever switch sides. If Davos has anything at all to do with the Starks, it's going to be with Rickon most likely. In any case, how would Davos pull Jon from a fire? When would he do it?

And Rhaegar isn't AAR because he's dead=He doesn't think Rhaegar is AA to begin with.

There are my legit criticisms of a weak theory. Unless something extremely and utterly unexpected happens in the next two books, there is no possibility of Lightbringer being Jon IMO. There's much more evidence supporting Jon as AAR, and even more for Dany. I'm a logical person, I don't go in for crackpots without more evidence than "he could shake his hand".

[sj4iy]

He doesn't think Rhaegar is AA to begin with.

It's another version of this theory, which is why I mentioned it. In the end, I just don't see any version of this theory making enough sense to be a real possibility.

[Ghost's Shadow]

No offense to Schmendrick, but I remember when reading that theory that some things were a bit out there, or perhaps better said he tried to address so much into it that in the end you have nothing.

For example: I like the theory that Nissa means moon (part 3), and that the Dothraki story was basically Rhaegar and his two wives/moons (with Nissa Nissa indicating the second moon, thus wife, thus Lyanna as the sacrifice.)

But then trying to make a point about how AAR (the sun, Rhaegar) made his third attempt at forging Lightbringer (= tPtwP), this being his third child so Jon is Lightbringer, and ON TOP OF THAT suddenly come up with how then Lightbringer is also Jon warging a dragon/Drogon, who is Dany's dragon, that's taking things a little bit too far for me, and so it just seems the 'Jon must have Drogon' fangirls got to him.

I don't think it matters all that much, a warged dragon or not. Dany will come to Westeros and those dragons will fight the Others. They'll Dracarys those Wights warged or not.

[J. Stargaryen]

Uh, the ONLY prophecy and ONLY legend? I'm on mobile, I can't post huge quotes of text on mobile...but it shouldn't be necessary in this case. Lightbringer will be drawn from the fire, and he who grasps it will be AAR, and all darkness will flee before him. The legend that says how Lightbringer is forged by AA. It's all very specific and not vague at all.

Yeah, there's nothing vague at all about the AA prophecy, except for the stuff about bleeding stars, (waking) stone dragons, being born again amidst smoke and salt.

I've already said my peace and given legitimate criticism of this theory. Jon and Davos have NEVER MET. The idea that they will somehow "come together" and Davos will "grasp" Jon with a handshake and then "use him" to make the darkness flee is nonsensical. You could literally put anyone else in that situation. Davos hasn't woken dragons from stone. As Stannis' man, he's too loyal to ever switch sides. If Davos has anything at all to do with the Starks, it's going to be with Rickon most likely. In any case, how would Davos pull Jon from a fire? When would he do it?

I'm not arguing in favor of Davos as AAr, nor is it a part of the R+L=LB theory. Davos = AAr is AntZ's idea. Schmendrick never got around to explaining who or what he thought AAr was. If it turns out that Jon warging a dragon = LB, I think Dany is the best candidate for AAr.

And Rhaegar isn't AAR because he's dead.

The fact that Rhaegar is said to share symbolic parallels with the legendary AA doesn't automatically mean that he was AAr. And even if someone thinks it does, AAr is a title (to be) given to the champion of fire, and titles can be passed on.

There are my legit criticisms of a weak theory. Unless something extremely and utterly unexpected happens in the next two books, there is no possibility of Lightbringer being Jon IMO. There's much more evidence supporting Jon as AAR, and even more for Dany. I'm a logical person, I don't go in for crackpots without more evidence than "he could shake his hand".

Are you aware that Davos = AAr is not a part of Schmendrick's theory? It's AntZ's idea. If GRRM himself told us tomorrow that Davos is definitely not AAr, it would have no impact on R+L=LB.

[J. Stargaryen]

No offense to Schmendrick, but I remember when reading that theory that some things were a bit out there, or perhaps better said he tried to address so much into it that in the end you have nothing.

For example: I like the theory that Nissa means moon (part 3), and that the Dothraki story was basically Rhaegar and his two wives/moons (with Nissa Nissa indicating the second moon, thus wife, thus Lyanna as the sacrifice.)

But then trying to make a point about how AAR (the sun, Rhaegar) made his third attempt at forging Lightbringer (= tPtwP), this being his third child so Jon is Lightbringer, and ON TOP OF THAT suddenly come up with how then Lightbringer is also Jon warging a dragon/Drogon, who is Dany's dragon, that's taking things a little bit too far for me, and so it just seems the 'Jon must have Drogon' fangirls got to him.

I don't think it matters all that much, a warged dragon or not. Dany will come to Westeros and those dragons will fight the Others. They'll Dracarys those Wights warged or not.

Duality. For example, you mentioned the moons. Schmendrick says that they represent Lyanna and Dany. Well, Lyanna literally gave birth to a figurative dragon, while Dany figuratively gave birth to literal dragons.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Ah, then I guess Schmendrick and me are in disagreement there. :lol:

I like the wives theory better, as you have 3 dragons then, with the first two (attempts at forging) being Rhaenys (took after her Roynar/water) mother, and Aegon with his head getting smashed in by a lion man.

I wonder if we'll ever know the real version.

[sj4iy]

Yeah, there's nothing vague at all about the AA prophecy, except for the stuff about bleeding stars, (waking) stone dragons, being born again amidst smoke and salt.

I'm not arguing in favor of Davos as AAr, nor is it a part of the R+L=LB theory. Davos = AAr is AntZ's idea. Schmendrick never got around to explaining who or what he thought AAr was. If it turns out that Jon warging a dragon = LB, I think Dany is the best candidate for AAr.

The fact that Rhaegar is said to share symbolic parallels with the legendary AA doesn't automatically mean that he was AAr. And even if someone thinks it does, AAr is a title (to be) given to the champion of fire, and titles can be passed on.

Are you aware that Davos = AAr is not a part of Schmendrick's theory? It's AntZ's idea. If GRRM himself told us tomorrow that Davos is definitely not AAr, it would have no impact on R+L=LB.

I have absolutely no wish to address a theory not mentioned in this thread nor completely explained in it's own thread. I'm specifically refuting the theory that Davos is AAR and Jon is LB. Bringing other people and theories into it just confuses the issue.

In any case, I think we've probably sidetracked this thread too long, as none if this really has anything to do with foreshadowing, so I digress and just agree to disagree.

[J. Stargaryen]

I have absolutely no wish to address a theory not mentioned in this thread nor completely explained in it's own thread. I'm specifically refuting the theory that Davos is AAR and Jon is LB. Bringing other people and theories into it just confuses the issue.

In any case, I think we've probably sidetracked this thread too long, as none if this really has anything to do with foreshadowing, so I digress and just agree to disagree.

So, you want to be able to argue Jon = LB makes no sense, but when someone tries to explain to you how it does or at least could, that's not allowed?

Btw, I'm pretty sure that the post by AntZ that you initially replied to was referencing R+L=LB; "and Jon becomes the LB." - Link

[sj4iy]

So, you want to be able to argue Jon = LB makes no sense, but when someone tries to explain to you how it does or at least could, that's not allowed?

Btw, I'm pretty sure that the post by AntZ that you initially replied to was referencing R+L=LB; "and Jon becomes the LB." - Link

I'm not about to get embroiled in a "what if" debate. I was specifically addressing the theory mentioned here. If I wanted to debate the other theory, I'd go into the other thread.

Really, I'm done. I have no wish to continue this debate. I don't buy into it. That's really the long and the short of it. If I'm wrong, so be it. But I have no reason to believe that it's Jon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It most likely said before but could Arya's great grandmother Arya Flint being a foreshadowing about Arya's future as the new Danny Flint?

[Lost Melnibonean]

It most likely said before but could Arya's great grandmother Arya Flint being a foreshadowing about Arya's future as the new Danny Flint?

You just made me feel ill.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You just made me feel ill.

I am sorry? :blushing:

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Rat Cook clearly foreshadows Manderly's Frey pies and the internecine conflict erupting within House Frey, so we should expect the other tsles of the Nightfort to have some foreshadowing too.

What does the tale of the 79 sentinels foreshadow?

And what about this from Bran's description ofcthe Nightfort? ...

They found a dank and dim-lit dungeon with cells enough to hold five hundred captives, but when Bran grabbed hold of one of the rusted bars it broke off in his hand.

Bran IV, Storm

And Mad Axe?

[Mrs_Darcy]

When Cersei starts ruling at the beginning of AFFC, she thinks that in a few hundred years Tywin will only be remembered as Cersei's father (because her greatness will greatly overshadow Tywin's successes).

IMO Tywin will be remembered mostly as the father of Cersei (and the guy who got killed while shitting by his own dwarf son and left a really smelly corpse), because Cersei will do something really bad (like burning KL down with the wildfire still left in the city) and he will be remembered as the father of one of the biggest lunatics to ever rule Westeros.

[Mithras]

When Cersei starts ruling at the beginning of AFFC, she thinks that in a few hundred years Tywin will only be remembered as Cersei's father (because her greatness will greatly overshadow Tywin's successes).

IMO Tywin will be remembered mostly as the father of Cersei (and the guy who got killed while shitting by his own dwarf son and left a really smelly corpse), because Cersei will do something really bad (like burning KL down with the wildfire still left in the city) and he will be remembered as the father of one of the biggest lunatics to ever rule Westeros.

If Cersei manages to destroy the Red Keep and the Iron Throne, she will never be forgotten in the history and her deeds will outshine Tywin or Tyrion.