Best places for human rights/greater equality?

[Mal Malenkirk]

No, it's not, but probably those girls become prostitutes when they are 14-15. That's not even taboo in Westeros, less so in the Summer Islands.

Still strikes me as forced prostitution. It's just that the pimp is rambling about how the girl is doing it for the gods instead of to pay him back for all he's done for her since he picked her off the bus.

In 'holy prostitution', I'd put the emphasis on prostitution, not on holy. And I bet the girl are more volunteered than volunteers. Care to bet on which temple is the richest in the Summer Island? My Money is on the holy pimp's temple.

[Chebyshov]

I'd be more impressed by Doran's concern for all of the innocent if he hadn't brushed off Ellaria off when she made one of the most sensible and noble speech in the entire book. Every single person involved in the rape and murder of Ellaria Elia and her children are dead and they're still going ahead with a plan that will get plenty of innocent killed.

Plans were already in motion. Ellaria said she didn't want to hear more of it, and Doran promised her that her kids would be safe. Then he defended her to Nym:

The prince gave her a curious look. “She understood more than you ever will, Nymeria. And she

made your father happy. In the end a gentle heart may be worth more than pride or valor. Be that as it

may, there are things Ellaria does not know and should not know. This war has already begun.”

We don't know the full extent of his plan or what the repercussions will be yet. All I can say is Doran cares very much for the innocents in Dorne.

[Julia Martell]

Still strikes me as forced prostitution. It's just that the pimp is rambling about how the girl is doing it for the gods instead of to pay him back for all he's done for her since he picked her off the bus.

In 'holy prostitution', I'd put the emphasis on prostitution, not on holy. And I bet the girl are more volunteered than volunteers. Care to bet on which temple is the richest in the Summer Island? My Money is on the holy pimp's temple.

You have a point (I emphasis again, you so totally have a point) but at least those girls who are potentially forced into prostitution aren't seen as soiled forever, or some such bullshit.

[JoeyBanana]

"serve for a few years after their flowerings to honor the gods". ACOK-15

"flowering" is usually 10.5 to 14.5 years. So perhaps I should have said TEN year old girls.

You're right, that is a downside. I'd still argue, since the only case we know of is Alayaya (who is 16), that Chataya refers to girls a bit older than 10 or 12, though. You're assuming the worst possible scenario as common and fact, despite no evidence of 10 or 12 years old SI girls being prostitutes. Doesn't make it better, by the way, but you're jumping to conclusions, imo.

But if you think about what was done to Alayaya in Westeros, i still prefer the Summer Islands

[JoeyBanana]

Still strikes me as forced prostitution. It's just that the pimp is rambling about how the girl is doing it for the gods instead of to pay him back for all he's done for her since he picked her off the bus.

In 'holy prostitution', I'd put the emphasis on prostitution, not on holy. And I bet the girl are more volunteered than volunteers. Care to bet on which temple is the richest in the Summer Island? My Money is on the holy pimp's temple.

It is, no doubt. But the same thing happens elsewhere, see Lanna in Braavos, and most definitely in Slaver's Bay and the other Free Cities. The difference is, they're not slaves or are burdened with the social stigma and treated as lesser human beings. If Chataya is to be believed, they're also allowed to leave prostitution behind and end their service. It's by no means perfect, mind you, but it's the least of all evils in that regard.

[Mal Malenkirk]

You're right, that is a downside. I'd still argue, since the only case we know of is Alayaya (who is 16), that Chataya refers to girls a bit older than 10 or 12, though. You're assuming the worst possible scenario as common and fact, despite no evidence of 10 or 12 years old SI girls being prostitutes. Doesn't make it better, by the way, but you're jumping to conclusions, imo.

But thinking about what was done to her in Westeros, i still prefer the Summer Islands

Alayaya has lived in King's Landing for most (if not all) of her life. At 16, she's been a prositute for a few years already so there's no telling when she started and her best prospect is inheriting her mother's brothel, she's not going to serve a few years and then marry a good prospect.

In other words, she may be a summer Islander, but she is very much a King's Landing whore and is living that life, same as any other, with the same prospects. Anything else is just romanticising it.

[Mal Malenkirk]

It is, no doubt. But the same thing happens elsewhere, see Lanna in Braavos, and most definitely in Slaver's Bay and the other Free Cities. The difference is, they're not slaves or are burdened with the social stigma and treated as lesser human beings. If Chataya is to be believed, they're also allowed to leave prostitution behind and end their service. It's by no means perfect, mind you, but it's better.

Chataya is her daughter's pimp. And she has left the Summer Island for unknown reasons. I take what she says with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I'm not saying that Alayaya's fate is bad compared to other small folk. All things considered, she is better off than most of them. I do believe however that Chataya has a strong incentive to sugarcoat the situation to her daughter and maybe even to herself.

If prostitution is so good in the Summer Island, why don't do they go back there? Best guess is that, like in most immigrant's case, life is not, in fact, better back home.

[marsyao]

That's not what "stigma" means...that's about the legal reality of bastards and political pragmatism of marrying into powerful houses. In Dorne there is no shame or dishonor in being a bastard...aka no social stigma.

Cosidering inferior to the marry-born brothers and sisters in the right of inheritance and marriage is not a stgma?

[JoeyBanana]

Alayaya has lived in King's Landing for most (if not all) of her life. At 16, she's been a prositute for a few years already so there's no telling when she started and her best prospect is inheriting her mother's brothel, she's not going to serve a few years and then marry a good prospect.

In other words, she may be a summer Islander, but she is very much a King's Landing whore and is living that life, same as any other. Anything else is just romanticising it.

That doesn't make it better what happened to her and yes, Chataya is her pimp. If you take anything she says with a grain of salt, then she could very well be lying/exaggerating to justify making her daughter a prostitute at that young age. The negative consequences of her profession solely originate from the culture of Westeros, the lands in which she's working as a prostitute.

ChillyPolly has definitely raised a good point. I'm not denying it's a big downside to living in the Summer Islands. I hope there will be more info on the SI in the future books, so we can get a clearer picture of that issue. As it stands, we have the word of Chataya, which as you correctly pointed out, is very unreliable.

[SeanF]

That's not what "stigma" means...that's about the legal reality of bastards and political pragmatism of marrying into powerful houses. In Dorne there is no shame or dishonor in being a bastard...aka no social stigma.

There's no shame to being a bastard in Dorne, that I can see. No one seems to say things like "his blood is tainted" or "bastards are treacherous by nature."

But, Dorne remains an aristocratic society. The status of bastards is less than that of legitimate children. Ellaria Sand can never inherit her father's lands or title; nor can Ser Daemon. Doran was polite, but firmly declined Ser Daemon when he thought himself bound to offer his hand in marriage to Arianne. Oberyn never marries Ellaria either. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are treated as part of the royal family, but I don't think they could ever be part of the line of succession.

[The Emerald Knight]

Wherever Olyvar is, that's a good place to be.

[SeanF]

I think Chilly Polly has raised a very good point. I tended to take what Chataya said at face value, but on reflection, Alayaya must have entered prostitution at a young age. Doreah was sold into a brothel at 9. Melisandre was sold at a very young age, although we don't know at what age she began work as a prostitute. Jeyne Poole was "trained" at the age of 11. Clearly, there's a market out there for sex with very young girls.

[Julia Martell]

I think Chilly Polly has raised a very good point. I tended to take what Chataya said at face value, but on reflection, Alayaya must have entered prostitution at a young age. Doreah was sold into a brothel at 9. Melisandre was sold at a very young age, although we don't know at what age she began work as a prostitute. Jeyne Poole was "trained" at the age of 11. Clearly, there's a market out there for sex with very young girls.

Did I miss the part where Melisandre was a prostitue?

And Doreah's backstory is just on the show.

[Chebyshov]

Did I miss the part where Melisandre was a prostitue?

And Doreah's backstory is just on the show.

Illyrio found Book!Doreah in a pleasure house in Lys, but her age isn't mentioned. As for Mel, she was sold to the Red Temple at a young age, but I certainly can't remember reading about her working as a prostitute.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was

inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced

patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

“Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears

were flame. And still she drank it in.

ETA:

As for the Dorne->bastardy, I was really talking about social stigma and treatment, not legal realities if bastard inheritance. Bastards often cause complications when determining who should be next in line, and given a lack of paternity testing in Westeros, it makes sense that only legitimized bastards can inherent. So insofar as that's a stigma, sure, but it's really just pragmatic.

[SeanF]

Did I miss the part where Melisandre was a prostitue?

And Doreah's backstory is just on the show.

It's easy to confuse the show and books. I'll have to check up on Doreah.

WRT Melisandre, it's in her POV chapter in ADWD, and in Tyrion's chapters in Volantis. Tyrion notes that the slave prostitutes are all tatooed with tears, and that there are three grades of slave at the Red Temple, Priests, Guards, and Temple Prostitutes. In her POV chapter, Melisandre remembers being sold as a slave as a young girl ("Melony, Lot 7") and further recalls that "her tears were of flame". Most readers interpret that as meaning that Melisandre was sold to the Red Temple, to work as a Temple Prostitute, with tears of flame as her tatoo. At some poin, the Priests must have realised her potential, and she graduated to the priesthood.

[Julia Martell]

Illyrio found Book!Doreah in a pleasure house in Lys, but her age isn't mentioned. As for Mel, she was sold to the Red Temple at a young age, but I certainly can't remember reading about her working as a prostitute.

Just doing my part for the Book Snob crusade. :wideeyed: :commie:

[JoeyBanana]

If prostitution is so good in the Summer Island, why don't do they go back there? Best guess is that, like in most immigrant's case, life is not, in fact, better back home.

Chataya owns the brothel and it's a whorehouse that has girls "fit for a king" and they're very expensive. We see three family members of Great Houses visit it, Robert and Oberyn and Tyrion, and another Hand. The one that biult the secret tunnel. Anguy spent all his money there, too.

My guess is, she was doing great until Tywin and a mob decided to be [jerks].

[Julia Martell]

My people hold that there is no shame to be found in the pillow house. In the Summer Isles, those who are skilled at giving pleasure are greatly esteemed . Many highborn youths and maidens serve for a few years after their flowerings, to honor the gods.^[1]

So it's the boys too, if that makes any difference.

And I'm also not sure how a "maiden" can serve as a prostitute, but she's not the only one in Westeros to play fast and loose with the meaning of that word.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Chataya owns the brothel and it's a whorehouse that has girls "fit for a king" and they're very expensive. We see three family members of Great Houses visit it, Robert and Oberyn and Tyrion, and another Hand. The one that biult the secret tunnel. Anguy spent all his money there, too.

My guess is, she was doing great until Tywin and a mob decided to be assholes.

Me too, I think Chataya was doing much better in KL than she could have in the Summer Island. It's what I hinted when I said life was not better back home.

I'm gonna make another guess; 'holy prostitutes' are no paid at all. The 'petitioners' pay a tithe to the temple which keeps all the money. That would explain why it's likely impossible for brothel like Chataya's to compete in the Summer Island.

The correllary would be that technically, 'holy prosititution' is really a form of sexual slavery but the culture is nice enough not to hold it against the girls once they've done their time,

Just a guess, but it seems likely.

EDIT: I bet the 'highborn' youth serving in those temples are never heirs. Mostly bastards and 'excess' children (fourth daughter, fifth son etc.). And as I wrote earlier, a 13 year old would be more likely to be 'volunteered' than volunteer.

EDIT2: It's probably a personal bias, but I have a natural inclination to believe that the heavier you sugarcoat something, the bitterer the pills has to be to swallow in the first place. And Chataya was sugarcoating hard.

[Game Of Thrones]

The fact that Jalabar Xhao is an exile from the Summer Isles suggests that they have their own share of civil wars.

I read a hilarious thread once that theorized that Jalabhar was just some random beggar from the Summer Islands pretending to be an exiled prince.