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BearQueen87

R+L= J v. 106

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v. 97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v. 98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v. 99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L =J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L =J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L =J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L =J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L =J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

R+L = J v. 105 (thread one hundred five)

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New shiny. I asked to be pinned. Now we float.



Our last thread went so slow! Anyone got anything we should talk about this version? (does not start with the word Tower and ends with Joy)


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I just want to see more finds of extremely clever innuendos in the text. (because we haven't already done this 234534 times at all)

Of RLJ or RL = Legit J?

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Relevant bump attempt:



How would you prefer for Jon to find out: Howland Reed or communication somehow with Bran who has learned from his tree?


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I just want to see more finds of extremely clever innuendos in the text. (because we haven't already done this 234534 times at all)

I'd like to see a list of R+L=J innuendos without Jon=King innuendos that having nothing to do with R+L=J.

There aren't many.

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What about a discussion of Jon Connington's movements in RR and what he might know about Rhaegar

what about about?

How many things can be stretched in these threads? It's ridiculous.

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What about a discussion of Jon Connington's movements in RR and what he might know about Rhaegar/R+L=J?

I'm not sure how much JonCon knows about RLJ besides the obvious--that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in some sense of the word. If part of 'taking" Lyanna was about prophecy then I don't think JonCon knows that; apart from Dayne and Whent and Aemon at the Wall (and potentially Elia of Dorne), I'm not sure how much Rhaegar talked about the prophecy with others.

However, JonCon can shed light on Rhaegar's character and maybe more of the events at HH that we haven't been privy to yet, like "behind the scenes" stuff.

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Relevant bump attempt:

How would you prefer for Jon to find out: Howland Reed or communication somehow with Bran who has learned from his tree?

My "dream" way of finding it out is this: Jon having a dream of himself going into the crypts and arriving at the statue of Lyanna to find the ghosts of his parents holding hands and singing to him. (No I'm not saying necessarily The Song of Ice and Fire because we don't even know if it's a literal song yet, but that would be a significantly... "parent" thing to do. Sort of like singing to your child to go to sleep.)

Another way is Bran seeing R and L getting married in front of a weirwood (to confirm J's legitimacy) and then seeing Ned confess it to the weirwood of Winterfell (to confirm that he's their son).

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My "dream" way of finding it out is this: Jon having a dream of himself going into the crypts and arriving at the statue of Lyanna to find the ghosts of his parents holding hands and singing to him. (No I'm not saying necessarily The Song of Ice and Fire because we don't even know if it's a literal song yet, but that would be a significantly... "parent" thing to do. Sort of like singing to your child to go to sleep.)

Another way is Bran seeing R and L getting married in front of a weirwood (to confirm J's legitimacy) and then seeing Ned confess it to the weirwood of Winterfell (to confirm that he's their son).

Disney?

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I'd like to see a list of R+L=J innuendos without Jon=King innuendos that having nothing to do with R+L=J.

There aren't many.

You can't really discuss R+L=J without discussing the possibilities of Jon=King. The fact that Jon is potentially the rightful heir to the IT has huge implications for the plot, regardless of whether you want to read about it or not. You could just choose not to read the posts that discuss the issue.

Relevant bump attempt:

How would you prefer for Jon to find out: Howland Reed or communication somehow with Bran who has learned from his tree?

I think it will be Bran that communicates with Jon, maybe in a fever dream or when he's warged in Ghost. Howland Reed has to play an important role somehow too though. I don't think Meera and Jojen went looking for Bran on their own, HR has to be up to something. Considering his friendship with Ned, and his loyalty to House Stark, I don't think he would just sit by as the Stark's are dispossessed and murdered, and considering he knows the truth of Jon's parentage, he has to be conspiring with someone about something big, but who?

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Disney?

I don't remember any disney book with incest, whores, infanticide, murder, regicide, rape, polygamy, adultery, slavery, assassinations, graphic violence and sex. How does Jon being legitimate make this story a disney cliche? This has happened throughout history. Look at Charlemagne's sons and the HRE, the War of Roses, Paris and Helen, etc. Love, hate, ambition, friendship, sex, spontaneous acts of passion, these are the foundations of all great stories of romance and tragedy. GRRM isn't as big a subverter of the fantasy genre as some people want to believe, he just makes it gritty, realistic, and human.

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Another question: how do Dany et al find out and what will she do with the information? Bear in mind that Tyrion and Barristan between them know enough to figure out whom the blue rose in a chink in a wall of ice likely refers to (perhaps with a little help from Marwyn). All they need is for Jorah or Dany to recall that vision and ask. GRRM has set up several possibilities for that question to be asked: the most likely I think would Marwyn explaining to the council what is going on at the Wall, as recounted to him by Samwell. But there is also the possibility of Tyrion talking to Ser Jorah about what happened to the Old Bear, tho' Tyrion only knows about that indirectly via the message to the Red Keep from Bowen Marsh. (Recall that Tyrion so far appears not to have said anything to Ser Jorah about that)

Actually it would be more subtle on our author's part to introduce the idea this way and only later have Lord Brynden and perhaps also Bran confirm it by speaking to Jon via his Raven or by something like the way the Three Eyed Crow spoke to Bran.

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You can't really discuss R+L=J without discussing the possibilities of Jon=King. The fact that Jon is potentially the rightful heir to the IT has huge implications for the plot, regardless of whether you want to read about it or not. You could just choose not to read the posts that discuss the issue.

There is plenty of canon that Jon will be King. Not so many that he is the legitimate son and heir of R+L.

106 reiterations of self-referential Meta.

I guess my request was too difficult.

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R+L=J theories being passed around again.

Would Tyrion know about what happened to Old Bear in order to tell Jorah?

There is the message I referred to above from Marsh to the Red Keep. Recall the discussion that ensued between Tywin and Tyrion about having Janos Slynt replace the Old Bear. Tyrion does not know any details, merely the probability that Lord Jeor did not return alive from the ranging.

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Another question: how do Dany et al find out and what will she do with the information? Bear in mind that Tyrion and Barristan between them know enough to figure out whom the blue rose in a chink in a wall of ice likely refers to (perhaps with a little help from Marwyn). All they need is for Jorah or Dany to recall that vision and ask. GRRM has set up several possibilities for that question to be asked: the most likely I think would Marwyn explaining to the council what is going on at the Wall, as recounted to him by Samwell. But there is also the possibility of Tyrion talking to Ser Jorah about what happened to the Old Bear, tho' Tyrion only knows about that indirectly via the message to the Red Keep from Bowen Marsh. (Recall that Tyrion so far appears not to have said anything to Ser Jorah about that)

Tyrion speaking to Jorah about what happened to the Old Bear has definitely got to happen at some point. Although the Red Priests/esses who believe Dany is AA may relay to Dany what is happening at the wall and the importance of her involvement in saving the world against the great other.

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There is plenty of canon that Jon will be King. Not so many that he is the legitimate son and heir of R+L.

106 reiterations of self-referential Meta.

I guess my request was too difficult.

What are you asking for? RLJ or RL = legit J?

There is the message I referred to above from Marsh to the Red Keep. Recall the discussion that ensued between Tywin and Tyrion about having Janos Slynt replace the Old Bear. Tyrion does not know any details, merely the probability that Lord Jeor did not return alive from the ranging.

I actually think GRRM is saving Tyrion telling Jorah for Winds.

As to what Dany will do: i do believe that she will bend the knee to Jon at some point, but it won't be upon learning RLJ. It will be after the War for the Dawn is done.

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Tyrion speaking to Jorah about what happened to the Old Bear has definitely got to happen at some point. Although the Red Priests/esses who believe Dany is AA may relay to Dany what is happening at the wall and the importance of her involvement in saving the world against the great other.

Ah, but it seems Tyrion has not said anything to Moqorro about the Wall as of yet. Illyrio told Tyrion about Stannis being at the wall but did not say that Jon Snow had become LC, and Tyrion has had rather a lot else to think about since.

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