R+L= J v. 106

[Bran17]

I think it's funny(really) how you guys make this whole theory to seem so simple, when it clearly isn't. :lol:

I'll be back with a few questions soon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think it's funny(really) how you guys make this whole theory to seem so simple, when it clearly isn't. :lol:

I'll be back with a few questions soon.

Who ever said that the theory was simple? If it were simple, everyone would get it immediately on a first reading of the text. R+L=J becomes clear only after examining the evidence closely--too many things would make no sense otherwise. But putting together all the puzzle pieces and concluding that R+L=J is the only answer to the puzzle that works is not at all the same thing as arguing that the theory is simple.

[Lharys]

I posted her a few weeks ago saying I was skeptical of the theory or at least some of the fervor behind it. I am now 99% convinced that Jon Snow's parents are indeed Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Thanks for all the links, research, deduction, etc!

[BearQueen87]

I think it's funny(really) how you guys make this whole theory to seem so simple, when it clearly isn't. :lol:

I'll be back with a few questions soon.

It's only "simple" because people spent a huge amount of time putting it all together. Look forward to your questions.

I posted her a few weeks ago saying I was skeptical of the theory or at least some of the fervor behind it. I am now 99% convinced that Jon Snow's parents are indeed Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Thanks for all the links, research, deduction, etc!

Huzzah!

[Salafi Stannis]

I'm sorry but isn't this exactly the same as v.105 and v. 104? I've never really checked these out closely but this is the exact same and v. 105 and 104. Is it supposed to be like that? And if so, what's the point? When was the last one that had something new in it?

[BearQueen87]

I'm sorry but isn't this exactly the same as v.105?

If we didn't have a pinned RLJ thread the general forum would be littered with people wanting to talk about RLJ in some way or another--the marriage of R and L, the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar's Plan, Brandon's reaction, how Jon will find out, what's in Lyanna's tomb, ect ect ect. It reduces clutter. So yes, there is a lot of repetition in these threads but it's necessary.

[stateofdissipation]

I think it's funny(really) how you guys make this whole theory to seem so simple, when it clearly isn't. :lol:

I'll be back with a few questions soon.

It is simple...

Lyanna had a baby-- bed of blood=childbirth

...Rhaegar was with Lyanna between her kidnapping and leaving her to fight on the Trident.

...Lyanna died holding old rose petals, presumably from Rhaegar

...Rhaegar died whispering Lyanna's name.

Ned has lived lies for 14 years

Jon is 14

Unless there is something we do not know... R plus L equals J. Assuming that we have all the information makes things simple.

It does not require refinement, just insisting that what happened has already been given completely.

[RumHam]

Snip

Yeah I never really thought about why they were hiding beyond because they were having an affair that they (or at least he) thought was very important. If they could be found there was always the risk Aerys could command him to return to his wife. Or the Starks or Baratheons could complain.

[Salafi Stannis]

If we didn't have a pinned RLJ thread the general forum would be littered with people wanting to talk about RLJ in some way or another--the marriage of R and L, the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar's Plan, Brandon's reaction, how Jon will find out, what's in Lyanna's tomb, ect ect ect. It reduces clutter. So yes, there is a lot of repetition in these threads but it's necessary.

Oooh, soo every few weeks someone just copies it and posts it with a new number? (with the occasional addition of course).

[BearQueen87]

Oooh, soo every few weeks someone just copies it and posts it with a new number? (with the occasional addition of course).

The first post, yes. It's a reference guide. When we get to 20-22 pages, the thread is closed (like all threads on the board) and a new one is started, the first post always being the same. Then the conversation continues.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Interesting, and definitely possible that Jon has a dream while in Ghost. I also think that there's a likelihood of Bran having revealing weirwood visions, and that perhaps the two will work together. I agree completely that we're unlikely to get a reveal of the entire thing in one big chunk. I see it more as an escalation of hints and evidences that we the readers will need to add up to arrive at the conclusion.

My guess is that Jon will have a very 'hinty' dream about his true parentage while he is under. Much like Bran's dream vision in GOT.

Bran could easily send JOn some telepathic info, via the wolves, while he is out as well.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah I never really thought about why they were hiding beyond because they were having an affair that they (or at least he) thought was very important. If they could be found there was always the risk Aerys could command him to return to his wife. Or the Starks or Baratheons could complain.

But those risks might always be a problem whether they return quickly or after a year or more--and I don't think they planned to live on the run for the rest of their lives (ToJ is not a place to settle down and if they planned to run away for good, they likely would have gone to their final destination). So the question remains, if it is assumed they were going to come out of hiding eventually (which seems to be a safe assumption), what was the plan? What were they waiting to happen until they revealed themselves? I have not seen enough people try to answer this question. I think exploring that question will tend to lead to a conclusion that centers around waiting for the baby to be born--which makes sense as a reason to wait if they entered into a polygamous marriage that could be questioned. Otherwise--why wait? What will be different later that won't be different if they came back shortly after disappearing together?

[stateofdissipation]

Yeah I never really thought about why they were hiding beyond because they were having an affair that they (or at least he) thought was very important. If they could be found there was always the risk Aerys could command him to return to his wife. Or the Starks or Baratheons could complain.

There is also the problem of Aerys supporting Rhaegar.

Staying gone slowed the rebels and gave Aerys the continued support of Dorne.

The Starks could not demand Aerys give Lyanna over when he did not have her...

Dorne could not complain about the treatment of Elia based solely on Rhaegar's absence.

Aerys screwed that up by giving the rebels cause to rebel and using Elia as a hostage... Rhaegar's absence caused the delay between the kidnapping and the outbreak of war. It also kept Dorne in the Targaryen camp.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The first post, yes. It's a reference guide. When we get to 20-22 pages, the thread is closed (like all threads on the board) and a new one is started, the first post always being the same. Then the conversation continues.

According to what J. Stargaryen has said, the trigger for locking a thread (any thread, for that matter, not just R+L=J) is when the thread reaches 400 posts (not based on number of pages). A few other threads have gotten to that point and gotten locked by the moderators and then restarted as a new version by someone interested in restarting the topic. Only R+L=J, however, gets pinned (well, technically, there are a few other pinned threads--but you get my gist).

I think the continuing interest in the subject might explain why it gets pinned. Sub-topics, of course, also sometimes get started as their own threads to delve more deeply into one aspect without cross-talk on other aspects of R+L=J (so this thread is not the exclusive place where anything related to R+L=J might get discussed), but basically as long as people continue to show interest in the topic, the thread will continue to live on as a new version after new version and the moderators will continue to pin the thread. And the first post of the thread is quite useful for new people to get a handle on the issues surrounding the topic. But yes, of course, largely the same points keep getting raised over and over again. We are a stubborn lot that way.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

In my opinion, and based on the theory I believe, it's quite very simple, and it doesn't involve any prophecy or marriage in front of a tree. Remember R and L were hiding. They were hiding from Aerys. Aerys wanted Lyanna after he found out about TKoTLT. Rhaegar said "ok, dad, let me get the girl and bring her to you. Oh, and I'll take two KG to protect me against the Northerners, of course. We'll be back soon." R can't clearly be against his father, he finally knows how dangerous Aerys is. They can't get out of their hiding place to perform a marriage. No, please, people, no marriage cloak either, and even a harp: too much to carry when you are going to steel a girl.

Aerys, after a little while, realizes his son is not coming back and is defending the girl, and now things have gone really bad in Westeros. He needs his son to defend the realm, but where is Rhaegar, and what could he do to convince Rhaegar to leave Lyanna and fight for him? Simple, too: they exchange messages and Aerys offers to legitimate the union and the unborn baby, and offers Hightower to protect them after Rhaegar leaves them. Aerys has the power to order them to protect Lyanna and the baby, and Aerys has the power to legitimate both. It was a deal, and explains why Rhaegar was so confident and happy before the battle of Trident.

Why do I think Jon is legitimate? Because three KG died defending him. Three men who Ned still think as loyal and honorable, after all these years. Would any of us consider a man who helped a prince to kidnap a girl to be honorable? Or even a man who helps two young lover get together and die defending a bastard boy from his uncle? Jon being legitimate, imho, is as clear as water. I wondered in the past how he could be legimate, but since I've found the mentioned above theory I have no more doubts.

[BearQueen87]

According to what J. Stargaryen has said, the trigger for locking a thread (any thread, for that matter, not just R+L=J) is when the thread reaches 400 posts (not based on number of pages). A few other threads have gotten to that point and gotten locked by the moderators and then restarted as a new version by someone interested in restarting the topic. Only R+L=J, however, gets pinned (well, technically, there are a few other pinned threads--but you get my gist).

Yes but post #401 is almost always page 21. I think the length of a page is 20 posts. (let's pretend like I haven't tried to figure this out in the past...)

In my opinion, and based on the theory I believe, it's quite very simple, and it doesn't involve any prophecy or marriage in front of a tree. Remember R and L were hiding. They were hiding from Aerys. Aerys wanted Lyanna after he found out about TKoTLT. Rhaegar said "ok, dad, let me get the girl and bring her to you. Oh, and I'll take two KG to protect me against the Northerners, of course. We'll be back soon." R can't clearly be against his father, he finally knows how dangerous Aerys is. They can't get out of their hiding place to perform a marriage. No, please, people, no marriage cloak either, and even a harp: too much to carry when you are going to steel a girl.

How does Aerys find out? The only people, we know of, who knew L was the the KotLT were Rhaegar, and maybe Howland Reed and the Stark boys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

According to what J. Stargaryen has said, the trigger for locking a thread (any thread, for that matter, not just R+L=J) is when the thread reaches 400 posts (not based on number of pages). A few other threads have gotten to that point and gotten locked by the moderators and then restarted as a new version by someone interested in restarting the topic. Only R+L=J, however, gets pinned (well, technically, there are a few other pinned threads--but you get my gist).

I think the continuing interest in the subject might explain why it gets pinned. Sub-topics, of course, also sometimes get started as their own threads to delve more deeply into one aspect without cross-talk on other aspects of R+L=J (so this thread is not the exclusive place where anything related to R+L=J might get discussed), but basically as long as people continue to show interest in the topic, the thread will continue to live on as a new version after new version and the moderators will continue to pin the thread. And the first post of the thread is quite useful for new people to get a handle on the issues surrounding the topic. But yes, of course, largely the same points keep getting raised over and over again. We are a stubborn lot that way.

Yes but post #401 is almost always page 21. I think the length of a page is 20 posts. (let's pretend like I haven't tried to figure this out in the past...)

How does Aerys find out? The only people, we know of, who knew L was the the KotLT were Rhaegar, and maybe Howland Reed and the Stark boys.

After 400 posts, a thread should be reported and locked.

And BQ, you counted correctly, a page is 20 posts (can easily be seen on every page, as the post number on the regular version of the site is in the upper right corner of each post ;) ).

So depending on the speed of the actual reporting, and the following speed of the moderators to close the thread, normal going threads reach 21/22 pages, on average.

Threads that go extremely fast (as R+L=J at times, most recently, has) can sneak in another 5 or 6 pages after the thread has been reported..

[UnmaskedLurker]

In my opinion, and based on the theory I believe, it's quite very simple, and it doesn't involve any prophecy or marriage in front of a tree. Remember R and L were hiding. They were hiding from Aerys. Aerys wanted Lyanna after he found out about TKoTLT. Rhaegar said "ok, dad, let me get the girl and bring her to you. Oh, and I'll take two KG to protect me against the Northerners, of course. We'll be back soon." R can't clearly be against his father, he finally knows how dangerous Aerys is. They can't get out of their hiding place to perform a marriage. No, please, people, no marriage cloak either, and even a harp: too much to carry when you are going to steel a girl.

Aerys, after a little while, realizes his son is not coming back and is defending the girl, and now things have gone really bad in Westeros. He needs his son to defend the realm, but where is Rhaegar, and what could he do to convince Rhaegar to leave Lyanna and fight for him? Simple, too: they exchange messages and Aerys offers to legitimate the union and the unborn baby, and offers Hightower to protect them after Rhaegar leaves them. Aerys has the power to order them to protect Lyanna and the baby, and Aerys has the power to legitimate both. It was a deal, and explains why Rhaegar was so confident and happy before the battle of Trident.

Why do I think Jon is legitimate? Because three KG died defending him. Three men who Ned still think as loyal and honorable, after all these years. Would any of us consider a man who helped a prince to kidnap a girl to be honorable? Or even a man who helps two young lover get together and die defending a bastard boy from his uncle? Jon being legitimate, imho, is as clear as water. I wondered in the past how he could be legimate, but since I've found the mentioned above theory I have no more doubts.

While I agree strongly that J is legit--I struggle with much of your theory. What evidence is there that Aerys discovered that Lyanna was TKoTLT? What evidence do we have that Rhaegar told Aerys he was going to get Lyanna and bring her back to Aerys to suffer for having been TKoTLT? Why would Aerys think Rhaegar would bring her back after crowning her at the trourney? Aerys sent Rhaegar to look for TKoTLT at the time of the tourney, but what evidence is there that any further effort would be made to find this person? Unless you have additional evidence I am not considering, I find it doubtful that Rhaegar went to get Lyanna in connection with Aerys thinking Rhaegar was bringing her back to account for having been TKoTLT. And as BQ87 points out, how could Aerys possibly have even found this out in any event? I highly doubt that Rhaegar running off with Lyanna had any connection to Aerys finding out Lyanna was TKoTLT.

[Bran17]

I can't see a satisfactory answer to any of these questions, which makes me think that what we believe is very far from right.
There must be a good deal of red herrings and false information that we are failing to identify.
Things don't fit unless we assume a bunch of "convenient" stuff to fill the in the blanks, which does not match Martin's style - or any good author's, tbh.
I think there is too much focus on the theory's outcome(Jon "Targaryen") and consequently a great effort to validate it when it should be the other way around.

Here they go:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.
It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

- What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

- Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...
I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.
He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.
Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?
Where and what is it, then?
Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

I wrote too much. :bang:

[Ygrain]

I can't see a satisfactory answer to any of these questions, which makes me think that what we believe is very far from right.

There must be a good deal of red herrings and false information that we are failing to identify.

Things don't fit unless we assume a bunch of "convenient" stuff to fill the in the blanks, which does not match Martin's style - or any good author's, tbh.

I think there is too much focus on the theory's outcome(Jon "Targaryen") and consequently a great effort to validate it when it should be the other way around.

Here they go:

1- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

2 - Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

3 - Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

4 - Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

5 - Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

6 - What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

7 - Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...

I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.

He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.

Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?

Where and what is it, then?

Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

I wrote too much. :bang:

1. Why did Aegon marry both his sisters? For duty, and for lust. Furthermore, if one wants to bed a woman, the honourable thing is to marry her, and Rhaegar was supposedly honourable. Also, if he wanted to sire the third dragon head, the child would have tou be legitimate because bastard wouldn't be a dragon (or a wolf, as we learn in the very first chapter where Jon appears). You pick.

2. The moment Brandon walked into the Red Keep and committed treason by threatening the Crown Prince, there was nothing Lyanna could do, and after Brandon and Rickard were killed and Jon Arryn rebelled to protect Ned and Robert, Lyanna no longer mattered. Plus, the whole matter of distances and information travel. Quite likely, she learned only when it was too late and the Rebellion was already under way.

3. How was he careless? They were never in danger until the end of the Rebellion, and he couldn't have foreseen the Sack.

4. What exactly are you referring to here?

5. Only, he never exposed himself or anyone else. No-one suspects a thing.

6. Whatever his plan may have been, it didn't take into account Brandon's rashness and Aerys' mad response. It has been speculated that he wanted to make away with Lyanna and keep a low profile so that neither her nor his family can find them, and resurface only after she got pregnant and thus their union became asinsoluble as possible.

7. Rhaegar being wrong about Aegon doesn't mean that he necessarily realized the mistake. The HotU vision shows him thinking that he needs one more child (but this is yet another aspect where he might have been wrong and the three heads may not be referring to actual persons).

It is assumed that the prophecy of PTWP is what Rhaegar read as a child and it made him become a warrior. As it is related to the Targ bloodline, it is probably the prophecy of Daenys the Dreamer who foresaw the Doom of Valyria and was thus a reliable source. Furthermore, the prophecy was narrowed down to the lineage of Aerys and Rhaella by Ghost of High Heart. It has been theorized that, since GoHH is related to the tragedy of Summerhall, Rhaegar might have encountered her during his lone visits to the ruins.