R+L= J v. 106

[stateofdissipation]

I don't know if he kidnapped her or not.

I just think it's more believable if he did, otherwise she was very dumb or very selfish.

But I'm counting on Rhaegar being a logical person. Why would someone think a prophecy would care for someone's name?

He kidnapped her... according to Robert and Dany... rebel and royalist have the same idea... nothing says it did not happen.

Rhaegar only ever said Aegon was the prince that was promised... the dragon must have three heads...

Aemon seems to think the three heads need not be siblings when he is thinking of the three heads for Dany's dragon.

Having the prince that was promised be recognized by the faith of the seven or other later religion would roughly equate to an Egyptian prophecy discussing medical insurance and retirement plans.

[Bran17]

So, Bran, take your pick :-)

I picked everyone. :bowdown:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it?

There really is not a satisfactory answer to why Rhaegar married Lyanna. there are one or two lines that might be seen as supporting it. There is also a SSM that does not absolutely exclude it.

I find Rhaegar married Lyanna a probable source for Ned's conclusion that Rhaegar did not frequent brothels. (lines one and two joined)

It is an assumption, and as such is hardly defensible.

Robert was fat and middle aged according to all sources... Rhaegar was lovely--check Cersei's description of him. Ned's comment could equally be an observation on the differences in Rhaegar and Robert's looks.

again an assumption and hardly defensible... though actually more defensible than the married Lyanna idea.

No reason seems good enough.

Before we get into the why and the how of the marriage we need to establish that it actually happened.

What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated?

None...

And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

We have as much evidence for the clandestine situation as we have for the marriage... None... It was remote, however nobody mentions it as a secret location.

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

The kidnapping prevented or delayed the Baratheon-Stark-Tully alliance. The war between the Baratheon-Stark-Tully alliance and the Targaryens was based on later (or arguably earlier) events. The case that Lyanna's kidnapping failed to prevent the war is better than the case that it caused the war.

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

The whole idea of what the prophecy was, what Rhaegar thought about it, and how that played in to his actions really needs to be reexamined. It really does not seem to belong in RLJ. The best thing one can hope to accomplish is to show that Rhaegar wanted a third child. However, according to Aemon, the three heads of the dragon need not be siblings.

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

Agreed... there is a bit too much certainty that we have all the information.... RLJ is simply one reasonable way to put the information we do have together.

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

The baby unnoticed-- from what? and when?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

Dying mother leaving an orphan asks the only living blood relative of the baby to raise it.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

If there was a threat at the time the promise was made yes. Tywin and Ned both believe that Robert would not kill babies.

fifteen years later one has no problem showing a threat...Judging by results Robert killed one Targaryen in single combat.

You got my point. :bowdown:

We have to assume lots and lots of stuff to make R+ L = J work. That's not a good thing, because it raises the possibility of GRRM's official explanation being bad or unclear.

I believe Jon is their son, but I also believe Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't be in love or the whole thing would be completely contrived.

I meant it was a clandestine situation as in "Nobody knew what they were doing there, there were no witnesses to the wedding ceremony". What was the point, then?

I agree, but it's still pretty significant. She should feel guilty if she knew about it, specially because it cost his father's and brother's lifes.

Yeah and yeah. Rhaegar's motivations are unclear.

The theory is still not good enough to solve the mystery. Actually, it brings more questions than it aswers.

From Robert, that was the whole point of it, or not?

If Ned didn't believe Robert would kill a baby, then why on earth would his lie be necessary?

You brought something good to the discussion... If Ned said he didn't believe Robert would want to kill a baby, then why did he hide Jon from him with such great effort?

[BearQueen87]

I picked everyone. :bowdown:

You got my point. :bowdown:

We have to assume lots and lots of stuff to make R+ L = J work. That's not a good thing, because it raises the possibility of GRRM's official explanation being bad or unclear.

I believe Jon is their son, but I also believe Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't be in love or the whole thing would be completely contrived.

I meant it was a clandestine situation as in "Nobody knew what they were doing there, there were no witnesses to the wedding ceremony". What was the point, then?

Rhaegar absolutely loved Lyanna. That's in text, at least twice that I can think of. We have to wait for Lyanna, I suppose, but Rhaegar did love her.

[BearQueen87]

So @Bran17 if I understand you correctly, your issue is not R+L = J, but (loving)R+(loving)L = J?

[Bran17]

1) I think Lyanna is more complex than that. She's about to be sold in marriage to a man she does not care for nor really like. Her father has some serious southron ambitions and we don't know how he would respond if he learned Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon. This seemed like an "out." Now if you think that's dumb or selfish, that's perfectly fine. But it's important to understand Lyanna as a person. She has the wolf's blood, she's the girl who became a mystery knight to teach a lesson to some squires.

2) The propehcy isn't about name..it's about proper birth. a PRINCE that was promised. Not a BASTARD that was promised. Every time Rhaegar concludes about who TPTWP is, it's a true born Targaryen prince: himself and then Aegon.

1) Yes, I think it is. She didn't want to marry Robert, but she didn't hate him either.

I don't believe she ran away with a married man only because of that.

2) Oh, I see it now. I always forget it was TPTWP and not AA.

Finally someone provided me with a good reason for this marriage to happen. :lol: I still think this bigamy thing is pushing too far, but less so.

[Bran17]

So @Bran17 if I understand you correctly, your issue is not R+L = J, but (loving)R+(loving)L = J?

Yeah. And the marriage. :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

1) Yes, I think it is. She didn't want to marry Robert, but she didn't hate him either.

I don't believe she ran away with a married man only because of that.

Ah, but that's where love factors in. Many of us think R and L were communicating for awhile and beginning to fall in love. The "kidnapping" was either quickly planned or Rhaegar acted before telling Lyanna, even though she knew they were going to go off together eventually. So love and that she would be the Prince's wife, a Prince who would not be visiting his other wife's bed ever again. It's a odd technicality, I know, but she wouldn't be a mistress or shunned by her husband like she would be with Robert. That was her issue with Robert...he would never stay in one bed. And I don't know how to describe her emotions to Robert. She really didn't want to marry him, didn't like him, but I think she also hated the system that said she had to because her father wanted her to.

Yeah. And the marriage. :cool4:

You are not alone with the marriage thing. Have you read MtnLion's TOJ analysis? We always recommend people read that first before we talk about RL marriage.

[stateofdissipation]

I picked everyone. :bowdown:

You got my point. :bowdown:

We have to assume lots and lots of stuff to make R+ L = J work. That's not a good thing, because it raises the possibility of GRRM's official explanation being bad or unclear.

I believe Jon is their son, but I also believe Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't be in love or the whole thing would be completely contrived.

I meant it was a clandestine situation as in "Nobody knew what they were doing there, there were no witnesses to the wedding ceremony". What was the point, then?

I agree, but it's still pretty significant. She should feel guilty if she knew about it, specially because it cost his father's and brother's lifes.

Yeah and yeah. Rhaegar's motivations are unclear.

The theory is still not good enough to solve the mystery. Actually, it brings more questions than it aswers.

From Robert, that was the whole point of it, or not?

If Ned didn't believe Robert would kill a baby, then why on earth would his lie be necessary?

You brought something good to the discussion... If Ned said he didn't believe Robert would want to kill a baby, then why did he hide Jon from him with such great effort?

Ned did not think Robert would kill a baby

"Your grace, the girl is scarce more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister to slaughter innocents,"--aGoT page 107

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343

Tywin did not think Robert would kill a baby

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

The evidence that Ned was hiding Jon from Robert is the same as the evidence that Ned saw Robert as a threat... None.

The point was yours... raising Jon as his son was a pretty stupid way to protect him or hide him. If you take away the protect and hide (that was added for no good reason) it is not so stupid.

[Bran17]

Ygrain has done a good job of answering your questions, but I will take a crack as well (sorry if I repeat anything):

1. While Rhaegar could not be 100% sure that the marriage would be considered valid, he had to take the risk. Polygamy was never truly outlawed in Westeros and apparently also is valid under Northern marriage traditions (at least Wildings, who also follow the Old Gods seems to accept polygamy). Of course Rhaegar would want to marry Lyanna--he loved her and she was a lady of a Noble House. I doubt Lyanna would have agreed to have a bastard child with Rhaegar. Marriage was the only real option--even if the marriage had some risk given that polygamy had not been practiced for so long. Having a baby was part of ensuring it would be validated and they could not possibly expect to be "clandestine" forever. As I theorized above, the plan appears to have been--get married, then have a baby, and then come back to KL and force the marriage and baby to be recognized. Rhaegar absolutely needed the third head, and I believe he was in love. So while there was no guarantee the marriage would be accepted, a better option was not available.

4. I think you mean that everyone accepts that Lyanna was kidnapped. I think this version is accepted because no other version was ever given by anyone. When Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, Lyanna's family and Robert assumed it must have been a kidnapping, and no one ever contradicted this story. But there are some hints that some people do not believe this to be the case (talk about Rhaegar being with his love, etc.). So I am not sure this version really was just accepted by everyone.

6. As to Rhaegar's plan--I set that out above--I think his plan was to marry Lyanna, have a baby with her and come back to KL with Lyanna and the baby and challenge anyone to question the legitimacy of his marriage and child. He then planned to raise his three children to be prepared to be the three heads of the dragon. He also might have planned to unseat Aerys, but I am less sure of that issue than some others around here.

7. Whether Rhaegar changed his mind about Jon being TPTWP is a matter of much debate around here (I believe that BearQueen87 and I are the two posters most associated with the theory that Rhaegar did change his view and believed Jon to be TPTWP), but it really is not that important. Either way, Rhaegar believed Jon would be at least one of the heads of the dragon. I personally think that whether Rhaegar knew it or not, Jon in fact is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. The song has many meanings, and Jon is one of them. I doubt Rhaegar invented the name of the song--I think Ygrain indicated that Ghost of High Heart (also known as the woods witch) probably was the source of this information.

I hope these answers help to clear up any confusion you might have.

1 / 6. It doesn't seem like a good plan to me at all. Oh, well...

4. What I question is why people don't discuss the matter. Each person believes in something, but they don't argue about it, like they are SURE of it. That's weird.

7. Don't you think it's weird that Rhaegar knew of a "Song of Ice and Fire" and fell in love with a Stark? What a coincidence... :eek:

[Bran17]

Ned did not think Robert would kill a baby

Tywin did not think Robert would kill a baby

The evidence that Ned was hiding Jon from Robert is the same as the evidence that Ned saw Robert as a threat... None.

The point was yours... raising Jon as his son was a pretty stupid way to protect him or hide him. If you take away the protect and hide (that was added for no good reason) it is not so stupid.

It's what most people believe in. :dunno:

Tell me, why would Ned claim Jon was his son, knowing that Catelyn would hate him for that and Jon would feel terrible about being a bastard?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Disney?

A whole new world

A new fantastic point of view

No one to tell us "No"

Or where to go

Or say we're only dreaming

[Bran17]

1) Ah, but that's where love factors in. Many of us think R and L were communicating for awhile and beginning to fall in love. The "kidnapping" was either quickly planned or Rhaegar acted before telling Lyanna, even though she knew they were going to go off together eventually. So love and that she would be the Prince's wife, a Prince who would not be visiting his other wife's bed ever again. It's a odd technicality, I know, but she wouldn't be a mistress or shunned by her husband like she would be with Robert. That was her issue with Robert...he would never stay in one bed. And I don't know how to describe her emotions to Robert. She really didn't want to marry him, didn't like him, but I think she also hated the system that said she had to because her father wanted her to.

2) You are not alone with the marriage thing. Have you read MtnLion's TOJ analysis? We always recommend people read that first before we talk about RL marriage.

1) ... I don't think that's convincing. It just feels wrong, I can't explain why. LOL.

2) No, where can I find it?

[BearQueen87]

1) ... I don't think that's convincing. It just feels wrong, I can't explain why. LOL.

2) No, where can I find it?

1) Well...LOL. If you come up with something, tell us. I can pretty much guarantee someone here has answer/explanation/piece of text that will help.

2) part one : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117116-rl-j-v105/?p=6228116

Part two (from Ygrain): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116524-rlj-v101/page-5#entry6191116

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I hope so. Otherwise his arc seems kind of pointless.

He's the Beard that was Promised =(

[BearQueen87]

He's the Beard that was Promised =(

Okay...Little JonCon now WINKS at me. Not blinks...WINKS. Suggestively.

[stateofdissipation]

Rhaegar absolutely loved Lyanna. That's in text, at least twice that I can think of. We have to wait for Lyanna, I suppose, but Rhaegar did love her.

Lyanna died holding a token from Rhaegar. We have R loved L and vice versa.

--The Lyanna with eyes weeping blood does seem odd though. Crying blood or weeping blood are generally tied to calling for justice or revenge

In love=/=in love since Harrenhal In love=/=in secret communication in love=/=ran off together.

The couple had a minimum of three months together before Lyanna got pregnant and some time after..

-nearly a year plus the time between kidnapping and Aerys calling for heads minus 9 months-- safe to call that 3 months.

-Jon was born a month or thereabouts after the Trident and the sack... Rhaegar was with Lyanna minus travel time to the Trident. --They had been together the better part of a year.

[BearQueen87]

Lyanna died holding a token from Rhaegar. We have R loved L and vice versa.

--The Lyanna with eyes weeping blood does seem odd though. Crying blood or weeping blood are generally tied to calling for justice or revenge

In love=/=in love since Harrenhal In love=/=in secret communication in love=/=ran off together.

I'm one of the people who doesn't think they fell madly in love at Harrenhal.

The rest...we'll see. I know how much you hate speculation.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

He kidnapped her... according to Robert and Dany... rebel and royalist have the same idea... nothing says it did not happen.

Rhaegar only ever said Aegon was the prince that was promised... the dragon must have three heads...

Aemon seems to think the three heads need not be siblings when he is thinking of the three heads for Dany's dragon.

Having the prince that was promised be recognized by the faith of the seven or other later religion would roughly equate to an Egyptian prophecy discussing medical insurance and retirement plans.

The dragon must have three heads quote was directed at Dany. Sort of. That is what I took from the scene with Rhaegar. Along with Aemon's words that you brought up, the situatin of the dragon must have three heads does not mean three siblings. If it means three siblings then that prophecy is doomed. Two (or one if Aegon is actually Aegon) are dead and gone. To think that the dragon must have three heads points to Rhaegar's need for a third child is not so clear.

Yet here we are with Dany supposedly needing two more heads that are not her siblings. So where does Jon fit in this equation?

Also, why marry Lya to make a prince? Aegon is the Prince. No need to make another, right?

The Song of Ice and Fire. Why was it Aegon's? What made the song his?

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 / 6. It doesn't seem like a good plan to me at all. Oh, well...

4. What I question is why people don't discuss the matter. Each person believes in something, but they don't argue about it, like they are SURE of it. That's weird.

7. Don't you think it's weird that Rhaegar knew of a "Song of Ice and Fire" and fell in love with a Stark? What a coincidence... :eek:

1/6. Well, obviously it turned out not to be a good plan--we all know how it turned out. But I think you need to try to put yourself into the heads of the characters that GRRM created and situation he placed them in (and not judge by modern standards). Rhaegar is Crown Prince, and he is obsessed with a prophesy that he believes means he must give birth to three heads of the dragon. He was wrong, of course (only one of his children is a head of the dragon), but in his mind, he needs this third head. Elia cannot give it to him. He also has strong feelings for Lyanna. He comes to believe that she must be the mother of this third head. Do you have a better plan?

4. I think that in Westeros, certain things are simply not much discussed. What is the point of debating about whether Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna or they ran off together? They are both dead. There is just not a big reason to discuss the matter. Some people assume one case, and talk about it that way. Other people have a different view--but these two groups tend to be different and separated, so there are not that many opportunities for the topic to come up when people of different views are together.

7. No, I don't think it is a coincidence that Rhaegar (fire) fell in love with a Stark (ice). As I have said, Jon is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified.

Also, a few points you made in response to others that I wanted to address:

Was Rhaegar acting honorably? Under the circumstances, probably. Assuming he cleared the situation with his wife (which I suspect he did), he was betraying no one. It is less honorable if Elia was not part of the decision, but given that she could not give him another child, under the circumstances, he had no real choice (or at least would have thought so). Obviously, if the kidnapping is really a kidnapping, then his actions are despicable, but all the clues from the text are that Lyanna went willingly. If I am wrong about this, I will admit you are correct, but assuming I am correct that she went willingly, there is nothing dishonorable, IMHO.

Would Jon be a "dragon" if unmarried to Lyanna? It does not matter what the prophesy really would mean--but what Rhaegar would think it means. I don't think Rhaegar would want to take any chances on whether it matters, so he would want the marriage--and more to the point--Lyanna would likely insist on it. But as to the dragon issue, why would Rhaegar take a chance that being a "true Targ" in name and blood would matter. In addition, as I noted, I think Rhaegar realized that Jon would be TPTWP, and so he had to be a Prince and not a Bastard.

Should Lyanna leave ToJ after finding out what has happened to her brother and father? NO, and it is not being a bitch. By the time she likely finds out what happened, there is nothing she can do to make things any better. How would leaving ToJ help? They would still be dead. She needed to stick to the plan--it might not be a great plan but it appeared to be their best hope to protect themselves and their loved ones. Rhaegar and Lyanna turned out to be wrong, but that does not mean that the plan was not the best option available to them at that time. Leaving ToJ would have been foolish and would have accomplished nothing productive.

Should Rhaegar have left his other two children? They were with their mother in RK--the safest place in Westeros. In those days, men left their children for years at a time to go to battle or some other duty and the children remained with their mothers. Again, stop thinking modern sensibilities. Under the circumstances and for that time, leaving them with Elia in RK at KL was a very responsible way to protect his other children. The ultimate plan was to come back and raise them with Jon to be the three heads of the dragon. R needed to get the third head first before he could come back and be with his children. His duty to the world was to fulfill the prophesy.

Did Ned put Jon at risk? I totally disagree here. Who could Ned have left Jon with? If it came out that Ned left this child with someone, that would be even more suspicious. It is because Ned would not betray his wife that when he admits to this betrayal it is believable. An honorable man would admit to an indiscretion and take in the bastard son. Why would anyone suspect that he picked up the child on Lyanna's death bed? Why would that occur to anyone under the circumstances? And obviously, in this case, the ruse worked--no one suspected.

Was Rhaegar silly for not predicted Brandon's and Aerys's actions? No, Rhaegar was not silly. Brandon's reaction is so over the top that virtually no one would have predicted it. Of course, he knew her family would be upset, but to commit treason right in front of the king is an absurd action that in fact, I believe is one of the more difficult aspects of the book to think could have happened even under the circumstances. I don't care how mad Brandon was, no one would do what Brandon did under those circumstances--it happened only because GRRM needed it to happen for the plot. So Rhaegar not predicting it is not silly at all.

Do we know what prophesy was driving Rhaegar? Yes, we do. We have the HotU vision. Rhaegar talks about the prophesy of TPTWP and says that the dragon has three heads and there must be one more. It is quite clear that this prophesy is the prophesy that is driving Rhaegar.

[stateofdissipation]

It's what most people believe in. :dunno:

Tell me, why would Ned claim Jon was his son, knowing that Catelyn would hate him for that and Jon would feel terrible about being a bastard?

Most people could believe the world is flat... does not make it so...

---Some conjecture--

Ned promised to raise Jon as his son...

Ned scarcely knew Catelyn-- much less that she would prove to be a complete jerk about the whole thing...

Jon feeling terrible has much to do with Catelyn's treatment.

--end conjecture--

Coming up with more baseless drivel does not really solve much. I can't prove it. One could reassert that Ned was protecting Jon based on Lyanna's fears... to which the question goes back to where did she get the fears... and round and round it goes...

I do not know the promise

I do not know the lies Ned lived

I do not know why Ned raised Jon as his son

I do know that Ned said he did not think Robert would kill innocents... I do know that Tywin said that Robert would not kill children...