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Cavendish

Is Varys bad or good?

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I thought he was good since he wanted the peace of the realm. But then someone said he is like Littlefinger and even kills his children spies after they give him critical information he needs. Is this true?


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Nah we've never heard that's true IMO; we know he passively condones their mutilation by only taking birds that have had their tongues cut. There are other spies of his too, but the little birds seem key to his intel

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It depends on who YOU like and who YOU are loyal to. It was quite clear at the end of ADWD that Vays loyalties lie with house Targaryen, so if you like any house that participated in their downfall and exile (even the Starks) than yes, Varys is a bad guys, if you like House Targ, than he's good guy to the core.


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We don't know that his little birds are having their tongues cut out for the trade though. It could be he only takes children who have suffered mutilation (just as he once did).



Varys is a mystery. One of the biggest in the series. I like to think he's somewhat good. He's certainly willing to do non-good things, but I think he means well for the long term.


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He doesn't want peace by itself, he wants peace on his terms, under Aegon.



If he really wanted peace then he would have let Kevan fix Cersei's mess instead of making things worse


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We don't know that his little birds are having their tongues cut out for the trade though. It could be he only takes children who have suffered mutilation (just as he once did).

Varys is a mystery. One of the biggest in the series. I like to think he's somewhat good. He's certainly willing to do non-good things, but I think he means well for the long term.

Yes, but at the same time illyrio implies that they are kind of being made for him; even if not, he still is buying them and therefore contributing to the trade.

I want to believe as much as anybody that varys is good; he most certainly is doing, as to the best of his knowledge, what he thinks is the right thing, of that I have no doubt

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He doesn't want peace by itself, he wants peace on his terms, under Aegon.

If he really wanted peace then he would have let Kevan fix Cersei's mess instead of making things worse

Absolutely. Which makes me think Varys is a dark grey. I'd say he's closer to bad than good.

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It depends on who YOU like and who YOU are loyal to. It was quite clear at the end of ADWD that Vays loyalties lie with house Targaryen, so if you like any house that participated in their downfall and exile (even the Starks) than yes, Varys is a bad guys, if you like House Targ, than he's good guy to the core.

You took the words out of my mouth - or off my keyboard.

Was just going to type the same thing.

Varys is loyal to House Targaryen, and your view of his badness or goodness depends on where your own loyalties lie.

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I'm not even sure he's pro Targ. There is some insinuation that Aerys reign started to go down hill once Vary's shows up. Either way he's a boss in my book.


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I want to believe as much as anybody that varys is good; he most certainly is doing, as to the best of his knowledge, what he thinks is the right thing, of that I have no doubt

This pretty much sums up my opinion on Varys.

I am not convinced that Varys is a supporter of House Targaryen (though it would make me happy if he was). But I don't think that Varys's intentions are evil. His actions are of questionable morality, but perhaps in his way of thinking, this is the price he must pay.

The biggest difference for me in LF and Varys is this: LF uses catspaws, trickery, and bribing to get his deeds done (ie: Joffrey, stealing Sansa). If Varys is up to something big, he accomplishes those things himself (ie: Tyrion, Kevan, Pycelle). That says a lot to me about Varys's motivations. He isn't one of those chaotic neutral or chaotic evil type of guys. He's willing to do things the Ned Stark route because he's dedicated in following through with his beliefs. This is what I like about Varys.

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I like to think that Varys mainly addicted to the game--that he and Illyrio are pulling their "take your stuff and sell it back to you" con on the grandest scale imaginable, just for the love of the con, to feel powerful. You could take the psychological angle that Varys lost his manliness to mysterious forces, so now he just absolutely needs to dominate everyone to feel good about himself.



with some flimsy moral justifications thrown in there so they can feel better about themselves.


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I'm not even sure he's pro Targ. There is some insinuation that Aerys reign started to go down hill once Vary's shows up. Either way he's a boss in my book.

Just because people say that doesn't mean it's true. Aerys was already bonkers by the time Varys showed up. In fact, hiring a foreign spymaster is rather a glaring symptom of his paranoia, and an indication of how bad he'd gotten. I think Varys was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and unfortunately doing his job made things worse. Don't blame him for Aerys being looney though. That was the Targ genes and the Duskendale thing.

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He doesn't want peace by itself, he wants peace on his terms, under Aegon.

If he really wanted peace then he would have let Kevan fix Cersei's mess instead of making things worse

Kevan was only fixing things temporarily anyway. As long as Cersei is in charge (and she would have been again) Westeros is in trouble. Tywin could handle Cersei, Kevan couldn't. Better, in Varys' mind, to go ahead and let her wreak more havoc so that when the Targs come back they look like saviors instead of foreign invaders.

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Kevan was only fixing things temporarily anyway. As long as Cersei is in charge (and she would have been again) Westeros is in trouble. Tywin could handle Cersei, Kevan couldn't. Better, in Varys' mind, to go ahead and let her wreak more havoc so that when the Targs come back they look like saviors instead of foreign invaders.

Well, yeah, Cersei would eventually get off the hook thanks to Robert Strong, but that right there tells us a lot about Varys' priorities. Like, if he really, really cares about peace he would have killed Qyburn or even Cersei instead of Kevan, for instance

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Something GRRM said really made me think about Varys....and that was when he was asked "who do you think the most misunderstood characters of the series are?" And his reply was "Oh, probably Melisandre and Varys."

Varys has pleaded that he is working for the realm since Ned was in the Black Cells. I really do think he is working with the mindset that his cause is the truly just one....to give a king to the realm that is worthy of sitting on the throne and that can actually empathize with the plights of his people.

Here's my thing with Varys; he serves the realm and wants peace, but has his own vision on how to successfully achieve long term peace. He seizes the opportunity to take the person with the strongest alternative claim to the Throne (be it the actual person, as I believe, or merely the identity of that person, as the Pisswater Prince theorists believe), mold that person into a King that the realm needs, and do everything in his power (morality be damned) to make sure that his candidate gets the Throne and keeps it long enough to rule the land in the manner as he has been taught.



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I like Varys. I think he is good. It helps that Conleith Hill is as awesome as he is; so I don't read book Varys as Martin intended, I always imagine Hill.



It also helps that he seems anti-Lannister. I wouldn't say he is pro-Targaryen though. Aerys seems to have deteriorated because of Varys.


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I like Varys. I think he is good. It helps that Conleith Hill is as awesome as he is; so I don't read book Varys as Martin intended, I always imagine Hill.

It also helps that he seems anti-Lannister. I wouldn't say he is pro-Targaryen though. Aerys seems to have deteriorated because of Varys.

I have to say that Conleth Hill is EXACTLY as I pictured Varys. It's sometimes a little spooky. One of the best castings I think.

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